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To: Dr Warmoose
Now returning to the article. I bet that it would be impossible to find a true five point Calvinist who teaches that the saved can engage in the hedonism and vile perversity that regularly is tolerated and accepted in the FWT community. The passages referenced above are prooftexts that indicate that many of those who claim to "believe in Jesus because of their own Free Will" will also use that same free will to believe anything else that they want to believe.

I can see that you have a lot of knowledge concerning finer points of various Christian sects, that I am ignorant of, so I would appreciate it if you could explain your position more clearly, in slightly more simple layman's language, for people like me who are not knowledgeable about the FWT people and five point Calvinists. I apologize if I misunderstood you in my last post to you.

I am not trying to be challenging, I am out of my field of understanding when discussing Christian sects.

174 posted on 08/31/2003 9:04:22 AM PDT by First Amendment
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To: pram
could [you] explain your position more clearly, in slightly more simple layman's language, ...about the FWT people and five point Calvinists.

In regards to "sects of Christianity", I am more of the opinion that one "sect" generally has a different personality than another. A true "church" is made up of individuals professing a common faith. How the charismatics conduct their affairs different from certain Baptists or Presbyterians is another matter, since I have been "forced" in a way to fellowship with presbyterians when I don't fully accept their covenant theology. We do agree on that which truly matters and that is why I would worship with those who teach infant baptism when I would be more inclined to a believer's baptism.

When it comes to the differences between those who believe in the the Doctrines of Grace (5 pt Calvinism) vs the American Religion (a hodge-podge of Arminianism, Pelagianism, and gnostisicm) beyond superficiality, there is little in common. We share a belief in a Trinity, but the Trinity of the American Religion (adopted by many 'Bible' churches, Southern Baptist organizations and by the many independants who claim to be "seeker sensitive") has very little to do with the Biblical Trinity.

Those of the Reformed faith (aka "Calvinists") worship a Sovereign God, whose Will is unthwarted by the creation. The American Religion, characterized by various Free Will theories, say that God is powerless to save and that salvation is completely up to man, governed by an alleged "free-will" choice. The former says that man is unable, the latter says that God is unable. The former says that God chooses, the latter says that man chooses. The former says that God's Will prevails, the latter says that Man's Will prevails. The former says that God's salvation is 100% effective for some (the 'elect'), the latter says that salvation is hypothetical for 100% of the people.

Calvinists believe that man's default state is born in sin, naturally rebellious deserving Hell and without God intervening in each individual's life all would perish. The American Religion says that man's default state is sinlessness, ie. a child needs no savior and if died would merit heaven because sin is only sin when consciously practiced. Heaven is man's to lose, not to gain. This is where FWT breaks off into various sub groups. Some think that one must "Choose Christ" in order to be saved. Others think that one must "Reject Christ" in order to be damned. Then you have those who reject even a Hell so salvation/condemnation is nothing more than where one sits at the table.

Calvinists recognize that after salvation, one's earthly troubles increase; the American Religion teaches that after salvation one's earthly troubles diminish. It is the latter that brings us these tradegies of Health & Wealth prosperity doctrines since the original premise is that Life with Jesus is supposed to produce temporal increase, despite Christ's claim that "In this world you will have tribulation.". From the spiritual aspect, Calvinism is opposite of the American Religion again. Calvinists generally believe that while the physical world is in battle, there is spiritual peace that comes from the Paraclete. Clearly the American Religion believes that through a complex system of quid pro quo, Jesus is the Great Santa Claus that know who has been bad or good and puts a Lexus in the driveway for those who prayed harder, or who showed the most self reform. As for spiritual peace, there is always the Christian Psychologist and the various Counseling and 12 Step Programs available at the church. Feel pain in your life? Take a pill and stop beating your spouse.

Calvinists view God with awe and reverence knowing that all things work for good to those who are within His will. Even salvation requires a change of heart before belief and faith can take place. IOW, The Spirit indwells prior to salvation. The American Religion says that man's heart is already good enough to recognize the gospel and to place within itself conviction. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is optional (though strongly advised) and is sought through that complex system of good works in order to merit indwelling. The reformed teach man's heart is a mess and needs cleaning by the Spirit, the American Religion teaches that man needs to clean-up his heart first before the Spirit will come in.

In short, Calvinism is Theocentric. The American Religion is Anthropocentric. Calvinism recongizes God's Sovereignty for God's Glory. FWT/American Religion feels that it is all about man. It is man who is sovereign and it is man who receives the glory of salvation. Jesus Christ is nothing more than a Plush Toy Genie Jesus to the saved, and through the teachings of Dispensational Premillennialism (Pessimillennialism coined by others) Jesus Christ ironically "loves" the reprobate through remarkably profound violence and destruction.

It is hard to find two more dissimilar religions that claim to use the same textbook. It may be that the American Religion uses their Bible as a stage prop and couldn't care less to the contents unless fragments could be looted to compose pithy choruses, chants and bumper stickers.

190 posted on 08/31/2003 1:46:33 PM PDT by Dr Warmoose
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