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To: Imal
I am also certain that Christianity is not at all "compatible" with Judaism, and that those who represent that it is somehow possible to practice them both at the same time is the foulest of lies.

Frankly, that depends. Is Christianity compatable with modern, Talmudic Judaism? Probably not, given that the latter is a legalistic system (by which I mean that it says one must follow 613 laws and all of the corollaries in the Talmud to be right with God), and the former is a relational system.

However, the real question is whether Christianity is compatible with Judaism as it is presented in the Tanakh, sans the mountain of additional commentary and legalism. I am fully convinced, after long study, that not only is it compatible, but that without Christ, there is no evidence at all for Judaism--and you have to throw out several books of the OT as being false prophets to boot. I know quite a number of Jews who happen to agree, and who, seeing absolutely no conflict between the Tanakh and the New Testament, see no reason to give up their Jewish identity simply because they trust in a Jewish Messiah.

The question has been asked several times, and I think it deserves an answer: What then of atheists who identify themselves as Jews? And why does the Jewish community, which embraces atheists and agnostics even to the point of giving them dual-citizenship in Israel, condemn only Messianic Jews as having left their faith and community? It's a horrible double-standard.

Now, regarding your objection, how exactly is eating unleavened bread and drinking wine (or grape juice) un-kosher?

I also found this statement by you back in post 116 to be completely illogical, if a very common sentiment: The only "One True Faith" is that which leads you to God. How can this be? If you have two faiths that point to the opposite directions (like Christianity and Buddhism, for example), how can they point to the same God? If you have two faiths that are similar on a lot of points, but which are incompatible in their core beliefs, like Christianity and Judaism, how can they both lead you to God?

Frankly, I think we need to elimiate that kind of sloppy thinking in any honest dialogue about religion. The "all roads lead to God" approach sounds concillatory, but it's ultimately idiotic. While it is possible that God could make leeway for those who are honestly mistaken (though I personally don't believe this to be true for a variety of reasons that I don't want to get into right now), if we're really serious about loving Him, we should be prepared to constantly re-examine our beliefs about how He relates to us and how we are to relate to Him. To do less, to stifle the discussion with vague "oh, it doesn't matter" statements, dishonors God by making our own comfort a god before Him.

Having said that, I also believe that we need to have these discussions with all love and consideration for each other. Having said that, I greatly appreciate your mostly gentle tone throughout this thread, which I have been lurking on since yesterday. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

191 posted on 08/28/2003 6:36:13 AM PDT by Buggman (Jesus Saves--the rest of you take full damage.)
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To: Buggman
The Monotheists' Burden ": The only "One True Faith" is that which leads you to God. How can this be? If you have two faiths that point to the opposite directions (like Christianity and Buddhism, for example), how can they point to the same God? If you have two faiths that are similar on a lot of points, but which are incompatible in their core beliefs, like Christianity and Judaism, how can they both lead you to God? "

It is worthwhile for all of us to recognize that monotheism is, by necessity, somewhat contentious, in that if my your GOD is the "Monotheos-" then mine is not accurately, the One God.

It's important that we realize that here in America we have developed a way of life that allows for respect amidst disagreement. We need to cultivate this ethic, even while disagreeing. History is full of those who became so fixed on the "truth" of their own viewpoint that they plunged into the ever-waiting abyss of hatred and violence.

The other danger is to monotheism itself, the concept that "it doesn't matter. your God is the same as mine." This feels good, but is intellectual nonsense. Standing for Monotheism necessitates standing for a particular God, not whatever one we'd like.

Holding these two in tension is not easy, but is absolutely necessary. Both the Jews and the Christians have help of knowing that Mankind is created in His image, and thus the fundamental intrinsic value and worth of every single life and mind and conscience is linked to respect for God. Thank God for that. May we live it out, whatever our contentions may be.

205 posted on 08/28/2003 9:02:37 AM PDT by cookcounty
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To: Buggman
Frankly, I think we need to elimiate that kind of sloppy thinking in any honest dialogue about religion. The "all roads lead to God" approach sounds concillatory, but it's ultimately idiotic. While it is possible that God could make leeway for those who are honestly mistaken (though I personally don't believe this to be true for a variety of reasons that I don't want to get into right now), if we're really serious about loving Him, we should be prepared to constantly re-examine our beliefs about how He relates to us and how we are to relate to Him. To do less, to stifle the discussion with vague "oh, it doesn't matter" statements, dishonors God by making our own comfort a god before Him.

With this paragraph, you betray the sugar coating of the rest of your post. If you are unable to accept the idea that that which leads you to God is right for you, while that which leads you away from God is wrong for you, then there is no basis for further discussion on this topic between us.

You are free to believe what you wish, and I am free to believe what I wish. God gave us this power, and no man may take it away. If that troubles you, it is your problem, not mine, although I hope you may learn to overcome that stumbling block someday. I assure you that such thinking will not bring you closer to God. As a famous man once wisely observed, "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Matthew 7:3)

I also hope you will understand why I refuse to accept the strawmen you are offering me. I have said what I have said, and stand by it. Am I guilty of sloppy thinking? Perhaps. If you accept the notion that talking to God is sloppy thinking, then most certainly I am guilty of it.

The truth is that God is everywhere, and when I speak of "turning to God" or "turning away from God" I am really referring to the process by which we, as individuals, come to relate to and understand God or ignore Him. Although God is vast and magnificent beyond our understanding, it is still incredibly easy to communicate with God and listen to what He has to say. Any system of belief which opposes direct communication between you and God is false, hurtful and to be avoided at all costs.

If your statements and inquiries are motivated by genuine love and concern, then more power to you. But this is not what I sense. Rather I sense judgment and a need to establish who between us is right or wrong on a topic where such a concept is relevant only between each of us and God.

If your intent is to establish whether or not you are right or I am wrong, then you are wasting your time. What matters is not what is between you and me, but what is between each of us and God.

If you can accept that, then there is no need for us to disagree at all.

265 posted on 08/28/2003 3:11:28 PM PDT by Imal (The World According to Imal: http://imal.blogspot.com)
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