I see. Well, the atheist Jew can be glad that he or she is still considered Jewish, Christian be damned. The atheist Jew gets the benefit of the doubt. The ethnic Jew who is a Christian doesn't.
Beam me up, Scottie.
Posted on 08/27/2003 2:00:45 PM PDT by yonif
With this paragraph, you betray the sugar coating of the rest of your post. If you are unable to accept the idea that that which leads you to God is right for you, while that which leads you away from God is wrong for you, then there is no basis for further discussion on this topic between us.
You are free to believe what you wish, and I am free to believe what I wish. God gave us this power, and no man may take it away. If that troubles you, it is your problem, not mine, although I hope you may learn to overcome that stumbling block someday. I assure you that such thinking will not bring you closer to God. As a famous man once wisely observed, "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Matthew 7:3)
I also hope you will understand why I refuse to accept the strawmen you are offering me. I have said what I have said, and stand by it. Am I guilty of sloppy thinking? Perhaps. If you accept the notion that talking to God is sloppy thinking, then most certainly I am guilty of it.
The truth is that God is everywhere, and when I speak of "turning to God" or "turning away from God" I am really referring to the process by which we, as individuals, come to relate to and understand God or ignore Him. Although God is vast and magnificent beyond our understanding, it is still incredibly easy to communicate with God and listen to what He has to say. Any system of belief which opposes direct communication between you and God is false, hurtful and to be avoided at all costs.
If your statements and inquiries are motivated by genuine love and concern, then more power to you. But this is not what I sense. Rather I sense judgment and a need to establish who between us is right or wrong on a topic where such a concept is relevant only between each of us and God.
If your intent is to establish whether or not you are right or I am wrong, then you are wasting your time. What matters is not what is between you and me, but what is between each of us and God.
If you can accept that, then there is no need for us to disagree at all.
I don't know, should I?
And no A.J., I was not calling you a racist. Most of that post was written not only to address your statement, but that of many others on the thread as well, including those of "racists". :^)
The takeaway from my position is that arguing over what a Jew is, without clearly defining what one means by "Jew" is a waste of time.
I think we have a failure to communicate. I have nothing against Christians. I count many as good friends. I welcome their support for Israel. Many live there and call it their home. It is only that Jewish law is clear on the treatment of a Jew who publicly renounces his faith for another. A Jew who converts to any other religion, including Christianity is an apostate. They have given up their status a Jew. A "messianic Jew" is an oxymoron. It is like kosher pork. They are either Christian or Jew.
They cannot be both. To say otherwise is a bald faced lie. Point blank.
Mel Brooks has done some great send-ups on this topic, but there are very good reasons why Jews don't tend to go door-to-door (although the Lubavitchers are something else, aren't they?).
This would probably make the most sense in Israel, since (my understanding at least) it IS intended to be a Jewish state for the Jewish homeland.
Don't look for Jews to be handing out tracts and trying to talk their way into your home anytime soon, though. ;^)
I see. Well, the atheist Jew can be glad that he or she is still considered Jewish, Christian be damned. The atheist Jew gets the benefit of the doubt. The ethnic Jew who is a Christian doesn't.
Beam me up, Scottie.
For that statement alone....she should be shamed and ridiculed as an ass.
...where angels fear to tread.
You may wish to be more circumspect about singling people out for ridicule.
He may very well have been a "practicing Jew", up to a point, it seems. But as far as I know, there is no record of Jesus having ever been ordained as a rabbi.
There are some interesting albeit unsubstantiated theories, however, that he may have been an Essene scholar, and possibly given that title by the Essenes. But I have seen nothing other than provocative speculation on the topic.
I wanted to be clear on this answer and actually took the trouble to ask someone smarter than myself about it (which is not hard to find, lol).
If you are talking about Jewish law, the law treats them identically. Denial of G-d is different than idolotry. They're different sins, however, they are not treated differently. Supposedly. If you are talking about secular Jews, who operate with their own logic and emotion, yes IMHO they are treated differently.
So what? Christianity was around a long time before Liberal, Conservative, and Orthodox Judaism split. Like over a thousand years before.
Curious though that *i* didn't mention mikvah, you did. I didn't claim to be an expert on mikvah, you did. Apparently I prefer my herring pickled with onions, and you prefer yours red. :)
That's a stawman. I never claimed to be an "expert" on the mikva. You made a specific claim -- that baptism derives from pagan practices. I countered that claim by pointing out the Jewish practice it actually derives from. All I ever claimed to know is the background of the ordinance of baptism, and I do know it.
You missed the point of what I said ENTIRELY! I didn't say any of this, GOD DID! You condemn yourself, not me. I have nothing to do with it. If Hell is not for non-believers, who is it for? I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm just doing what GOD says to do. If you CHOOSE to rebel against GOD, that's not my concern. I still want the Holy Spirit to call you, but He is responsible to save who He will. It's not my responsibility. Jesus explained the Scriptures to the Synagouge's and they made their choices. All the Scriptures told of the coming of Jesus. He is seen in all the verses. Don't be mad at me and my brothers, God is who you are angry at. As Christians we have 1 job; spread the Gospel. We are ordered to do that. You still have your will. We won't ever take that from you, nor could I. When you come to Jesus, you give up your will for His. As long as you rebel and keep your will, you cannot be doing God's will. That's what it's been about since Adam and Eve. It's not that complicated.
I just never understand why people get so angry when God is talked about. They act like He is some namby pamby, "can't we all just get along", God. He destroyed Sodom for their sin, He destroyed everyone on Earth, save 8 people, for their sin, He has put the Jews in slavery many times to punish His people, Why do people believe they can mock His Son's sacrifice and get away with it? Salvation is a free gift. I don't give it, He does. I don't judge you, He will. Being a "good person" won't get you there. That is the problem with all religions that have no Savior. You will be judged on your works and nobody is without sin. Your religion teaches you to shed blood for forgiveness of sin. Whoose blood have you shed lately? Do you take goats down to the Synagouge, or is that old fashion? Where does it say you should stop the Law of God? Read Josepheus and see that miracles stoped happening at the Temple when Jesus died. People were waiting and waiting for the crimson thread to turn white, it didn't. Did the Glory of God decend on the Temple to show their sin was forgiven one more time? No, it stopped. There was no need for sacrifice after the Supreme Sacrifice, once for all. There was a period of about 30-35 years with no miracles commented about in his writings.
You say God loves "your" people. Are there NO Jews in Hell? There are Jews that are atheists. Are they saved also by heritage? You are correct that God loves all people, That why His Son died for their sins. You must believe that to accept the free gift. If you don't, you are self rightious and will be judged accordingly. You must reach the standard Jesus set to get in heaven. Good luck to you and Shalom.
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