Jewish and Christian leaders launch countermissionary campaign [Fighting "Jews for Jesus" people]

Jerusalem Post ^ | Aug. 27, 2003

[MEGoody]

"YEs, but it is very deceptive to try and trick Jews into conversion instead of an honest presentation and plea for their salvation."

Please tell us how they are trying to 'trick' anyone. I'd like some specific examples if you can provide them.

[MEGoody]

"It is a stupid marketing gimmick."

How so? They were born Jews, and they believe in Jesus. Is there any part that is not the truth?

[wimpycat]

Can a person be a Jewish atheist, but not a Jewish Christian?

If Jewishness is an ethnicity, then if atheists are acknowledged as Jews, then Jewish Christians must also be acknowledged as Jews. Ethnicity doesn't change with one's belief system.

But if Jewishness is a religion, then if a Jew becomes a Christian, I can understand if other Jews say they are no longer Jews, but then they must also reject atheists as Jews. A Jew who is atheist, in my opinion, has totally rejected God-and if he rejects God, then he rejects the Chosen People, because the Chosen People were chosen by God. An atheist Jew has rejected his birthright, the thing that makes him Jewish. I personally don't count Jews who reject God as real Jews.

Atheism is even more of a personal attack on Jewish identity, so if Jews who convert to Christianity don't "count" as Jews, then Jews who reject the God of Abraham most certainly don't "count" as Jews, either.

Do you personally consider Jews who convert to Buddhism as Jews?

[MEGoody]

"They do not recognise the visible Church with the unbroken Apostolic Succesion, Tradition and continuous sacramental life."

Well, I've heard both the Orthodox and the RC churches claim this refers to them. Which is correct?

[rdb3]

One is not merely a Jew by merit of their birth, but also by a minimal standard of behavior. This standard even applies among secular Jews. When a Jew becomes a Christian, it is a very personal attack on Jewish identity. One cannot be both, as much as some Christians try to sell the idea.

:-/

Tell me how that does not sound like something the "blacker-than-thou" folks would say about black identity! The same principle applies.

Check this out:

One is not merely a Jew black by merit of their birth, but also by a minimal standard of behavior. This standard even applies among secular Jews blacks. When a Jew black becomes a Christian conservative, it is a very personal attack on Jewish African-American identity. One cannot be both, as much as some Christians conservatives try to sell the idea.

Do you see just how stupid that sounds?

[MEGoody]

"Atheism is even more of a personal attack on Jewish identity."

But is perceived as less of a threat than Jesus.

[cookcounty]

"Men do not go to the Mikva."

Not so:

Conversion requires both circumcision and mikva for the male: The Conservative Jewish process of conversion requires candidates, .....to appear before a beit din, or rabbinic court, to explain... to commit themselves to live as Jews, observe the Commandments, and raise any children with whom they may be blessed in the Jewish community and faith. Male candidates are required to undergo circumcision or, if already circumcised, to have a symbolic ceremony. All converts complete the rituals of conversion by immersing themselves in a mikvah."

I found this item through a skeptical mind and google. Thanks for the good advice.

As in primitive Christianity, immersion marked a significant turning, a physical affirmation of an inner choice and commitment. Ritual purification was also used by those involved in the Temple worship.

[cookcounty]

Article is from:

Rabbi Myron Geller's article at www.interfaithfamily.com/article/issue21/mgeller.html

[cookcounty]

"For that statement alone....she should be shamed and ridiculed as an ass.

No, she should be corrected gently, WWJD.

[katana]

My cousin was active in this movement for a while and, at least for her, the motivation was not proseletizing and converting Jews to Christianity but to herself become a "better" Christian by adhering to Jewish ritual and law (dietary and otherwise). She was a Christian who moved toward Judaism rather than the reverse, and for a Jew who comes to accept Jesus as the Messiah the motivations and conduct toward their fellow Jews are no doubt very different.

[adam_az]

You're right, I forgot about that. Understandable I'm sure, since Jews do not prostheletyze to convert others to Judaism, so I've never known a male to go to a Mikva, since the only Jewish men who go to the Mikva would be a cleansed leper... and I've never met a leper.

I'm amused though that, given the knowledge that most modern Christians are gentile converts, to deny that many of the rituals, celebrations, and iconography identified as Christian are borrowed from their previous belief systems is folly.

[cookcounty]

"Funny that you ignored the picture of the dionysus/bacchus crucifiction image...

Bacchus on the cross

I'm not sure I get the point of this: Bacchus is depicted on a cross, therefore that's where some Jewish fisherman got the idea of Jesus on a cross? I'm assuming this is how it goes.

The cross was the means of execution throughout the Roman Empire, and the Romans were prolific when it came to Executions. That the idea came from this kind of idea or image seems far-fetched. If Jesus is seen riding into Egypt on a donkey, and in China, a family is pictured ridng on a donkey, does that mean the idea came from China? Did Moses get the idea of a great flood from the Australian aborigines? Or the Lummi tribe of Native Americans?

Probably that image of Bacchus getting crucified was the first-century logo of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[A.J.Armitage]

The Mikva is for ritual purification of women after menstruation. Men do not go to the Mikva.

You don't know what you're talking about. The mikva is for ritual purification. Of anyone unclean. Including converts who are considered unclean because of their background. Here, here, here.

I don't have the time or interest to cover the rest for you.

Don't go making claims like that unless you're willing to back them up.

Totally different concept than baptism, other than both involving water.

Actually, there are only a few differences. We only use it for conversions (and everyone, even those with Christian parents, are considered to require conversion), not the other uses they have. And we don't require total immersion in the sense they do (not even Baptists), and some don't require it at all. The washing symbolism is superceded by death and resurrection symbolism.

Unquestioning devotion to your faith rather than rational inquiry coupled with limited knowlege blind you from being able to think rationally.

My knowledge is evidently a little less limited than yours.

Funny that you ignored the picture of the dionysus/bacchus crucifiction image...

Without context, it's meaningless.

Google and a skeptical mind are your friend. At least, they are mine.

You should have tried Googling "mikva".

[Nachum]

Do you see just how stupid that sounds?

Yes, it does sound stupid. Only because you are comparing a Jew, which is both a religion and nation to skin color only. In addition, you compare Jews and ultimately Israel (and its law of return) to separtist liberal Blacks in America.

Your example itself makes several assumptions, by themselves an attack on Judaism and by extension the law of return in Israel. If one could only be Jewish by birth, it would be comparable to race, but since one can make a choice to be Jewish there is no comparison.

Here is your example using another example:

One is not merely Christian by merit of their birth, but by a minimal standard of behavior. This standard even applies to more secular Christians. When a Christian becomes a Islamist it is an attack on American-Christian identity. One cannot be both, as much as Muslims try to sell the idea.

[cookcounty]

"I'm amused though that, given the knowledge that most modern Christians are gentile converts, to deny that many of the rituals, celebrations, and iconography identified as Christian are borrowed from their previous belief systems is folly." Ah, but you forget what is the silent elephant standing in this whole thread, that the gentile understanding of Jesus was mediated by Jews, who were the first christians. In addition, A study of the NT turns up the phenomenon of the "god-fearing gentiles," those who had abandoned paganism, recognizing that the Jews were on to something good. Yet, as non-Jews, their position in the synagogue was precarious. It is among these folk that Paul (and others) found very fertile ground for the message of the Gospel.

So "the church" was founded on a group of Jews, upon this foundation was laid the largely "judaized" gentiles and synagogue wannabees. These are the people who shaped the intellectual constrcts of early christianity, not some baccanalian band of bull-worshippers.

It's interesting to note that Paul, the self-described "Apostle to the Gentiles," spent most of his time hanging around in the synagogues of the diaspora. Why because that's where he found gentiles that were already pre-disposed to Jewish ways of thinking.

[rdb3]

In addition, you compare Jews and ultimately Israel (and its law of return) to separtist liberal Blacks in America.

Now you are being dishonest. When I rewrote your own words substituting black for Jew, I did not say anything about any "separatist liberal Blacks." Those are not my words. You added them, and they are severely off the mark.

Are you sure that you want to take such a stance against Christians who stand firmly behind Israel? That's what you are doing. Your silence on athetist Jews and erasure of Messianic Jews is anti-Christian bigotry. Point blank.

[adam_az]

I should have tried googling Mikva, you are right.

If you had read the entire page you quoted, http://www.interfaithfamily.com/article/issue21/mgeller.html you would have found this sentence: "Conservative Judaism has largely ignored this practice in the past, but recently has begun to reevaluate its silence in this area and to consider the spiritual implications of mikvah immersion for human sexuality and for women."

IE, the mikvah ritual has not been followed by mainstream Judaism for a while. I grew up in a Conservative Jewish house. I went to Hebrew school, practiced ritual kosher dietary law, studied for and performed my Bar Mitzvah ceremony including reading a passage for a Soviet Refusenik who could not have one in the USSR, helped my sister prepare for her Bat Mitzvah, and guess what?

Not one of my female relatives, who are all religious and ritually observant, went to the mikvah.

Curious though that *i* didn't mention mikvah, you did.

I didn't claim to be an expert on mikvah, you did.

Apparently I prefer my herring pickled with onions, and you prefer yours red. :)

[A. Pole]

In Israel, no. There are no organized atheists who make claims on the holy land (that I know of).

Why? Many zionists were/are atheists. The land of Israel has for them nationalistic meaning as a craddle of Jewish nation.

[A. Pole]

Well, I've heard both the Orthodox and the RC churches claim this refers to them. Which is correct?

Easy to find out - study the time of Great Schism (1054 AD, when they split) and judge for yourself :)

[ZviTheWise]

"This is the part I find wierd. These two statements are utterly incompatible."

Note that this is in Canada. Want to bet that the ADL or such will soon push for laws making evangelism punishable as "hate speech?"