Jewish and Christian leaders launch countermissionary campaign [Fighting "Jews for Jesus" people]

Jerusalem Post ^ | Aug. 27, 2003

[A.J.Armitage]

The matrilinial descent rule for Judaism is as much nationalistic as religious.

Well then, why can't they be Jews in the nationalistic sense?

[rdb3]

Actually, I think it's more like "Christians for Muhammed." While I wouldn't personally agree with it, I can imagine how a Christian might become a convert to Islam and given that Jesus is also a figure in Islam decide to adopt Islam through a Christian lens or adapt the Christian holidays to a more Muslim flavor.

If a "Christian" were to do that, he was never regenerated, and never was a believer.

[montag813]

One flaw of Jews for Jesus is that they are simply Protestants and they are not aware of it.

Flaw, or fraud? It is a stupid marketing gimmick. Just say Christians for Christ, as other missionaries do.

[A. Pole]

There is no such thing as a "Jewish race". I was not born Jewish, but I am a Jew.

The word Jews has two meanings - one is religion and another is a nation ("race").

Same way with Armenians - there is an Armenian Church and Armenian nation. Still after you convert to Armenian Christinity you can marry with an Amermenian, absorb Armenian culture and in the way you will become the part of Armenian ethnic community.

Sometimes it is hard to distinguish ethnicity and religion but many Jews are atheists, especially in Israel and they see themselves as very Jewish.

[cookcounty]

The Monotheists' Burden ": The only "One True Faith" is that which leads you to God. How can this be? If you have two faiths that point to the opposite directions (like Christianity and Buddhism, for example), how can they point to the same God? If you have two faiths that are similar on a lot of points, but which are incompatible in their core beliefs, like Christianity and Judaism, how can they both lead you to God? "

It is worthwhile for all of us to recognize that monotheism is, by necessity, somewhat contentious, in that if my your GOD is the "Monotheos-" then mine is not accurately, the One God.

It's important that we realize that here in America we have developed a way of life that allows for respect amidst disagreement. We need to cultivate this ethic, even while disagreeing. History is full of those who became so fixed on the "truth" of their own viewpoint that they plunged into the ever-waiting abyss of hatred and violence.

The other danger is to monotheism itself, the concept that "it doesn't matter. your God is the same as mine." This feels good, but is intellectual nonsense. Standing for Monotheism necessitates standing for a particular God, not whatever one we'd like.

Holding these two in tension is not easy, but is absolutely necessary. Both the Jews and the Christians have help of knowing that Mankind is created in His image, and thus the fundamental intrinsic value and worth of every single life and mind and conscience is linked to respect for God. Thank God for that. May we live it out, whatever our contentions may be.

[A. Pole]

Flaw, or fraud? It is a stupid marketing gimmick. Just say Christians for Christ, as other missionaries do.

I will repeat, they mean Jews in ethnic sense - like you could have Poles for Jesus. The word Jews has dual meaning - religious and ethnic. When a Jew or a Pole become atheists they do not become ethnic Atheists.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

One flaw of Jews for Jesus is that they are simply Protestants and they are not aware of it.

I doubt they would see it that way. And perhaps many would say that their Jewish culture, and their faith in Judaism led them to see that the messiah is Jesus. I don't know if they would welcome removing Judaism entirely from their practice of Christianity. I believe that many combine the two faiths together. But in the end, yes, they would acknowledge that they are Christians and that Jesus is their messiah and savior.

[cookcounty]

I hope you will welcome them with open arms, there are several dozen of them, and they have lists of phone numbers of people in your congregation and will be contacting each of you. Enjoy, and remember, they are Christians, so they are just like you. Here's a Koran."

LOL!! I'm in profound disagreement with you on this general issue, but that IS funny.

[A. Pole]

One flaw of Jews for Jesus is that they are simply Protestants and they are not aware of it.

I doubt they would see it that way.

This is what I said - they are not aware of it.

But in the end, yes, they would acknowledge that they are Christians and that Jesus is their messiah and savior.

This plus exclusive reliance of the Holy Scripture (in the Lutheran/Calvinistic version) is what makes them Protestant. They do not recognise the visible Church with the unbroken Apostolic Succesion, Tradition and continuous sacramental life.

[A. Pole]

One flaw of Jews for Jesus is that they are simply Protestants and they are not aware of it.

I doubt they would see it that way.

This is what I said - they are not aware of it.

But in the end, yes, they would acknowledge that they are Christians and that Jesus is their messiah and savior.

This plus exclusive reliance of the Holy Scripture (in the Lutheran/Calvinistic version) is what makes them Protestant. They do not recognise the visible Church with the unbroken Apostolic Succesion, Tradition and continuous sacramental life.

[rdb3]

More importantly, recognizing implicit and exclusive right of the organized Jewish community to determine the parameters of its own identity would seem to be the next step in improving relations between the two religious camps.

Well, that settles it. Je$$e, Al, and Kweisi are right. I'm no longer "black" since I now reside outside of their parameters.

[A. Pole]

One flaw of Jews for Jesus is that they are simply Protestants and they are not aware of it.

I doubt they would see it that way.

This is what I said - they are not aware of it.

But in the end, yes, they would acknowledge that they are Christians and that Jesus is their messiah and savior.

This plus exclusive reliance of the Holy Scripture (in the Lutheran/Calvinistic version) is what makes them Protestant. They do not recognise the visible Church with the unbroken Apostolic Succesion, Tradition and continuous sacramental life.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

They do not recognise the visible Church with the unbroken Apostolic Succesion, Tradition and continuous sacramental life.

Is there a reason WHY they do this?

[montag813]

I will repeat, they mean Jews in ethnic sense - like you could have Poles for Jesus. The word Jews has dual meaning - religious and ethnic. When a Jew or a Pole become atheists they do not become ethnic Atheists.

Oh just admit it, the title is hokey and manipulative, and too Madison Avenue.

[cookcounty]

""Why are Christians having much less success in proselytizing the less well-educated in the Islamic community?"

Is there "less success"?

I've recently met a number of former muslims who now follow Issa. ("yeshua" in arabiya). These folks have families and don't talk readily to TIME magazine, but they are definitely out there (and here!). I meet every other week with a university-educated former imam from an Arab North African state who is rejoicing in Jesus' salvation.

[cookcounty]

"GROW SOME ROCKS, LEARN ARABIC AND CONVERT THE MUSLIMS "...

I'm delighted to tell you this project is well under way.

The fact is, there are a lot more resources in the evangelical "missionary world" aimed at bringing the gospel to muslims than to Jews---and it didn't start with 9-11.

By the way, how about the Jews starting some missionary work of their own? It's not like you have no history of it. Especially with the muslims, it would make for a much more civilized, peaceful and productive world (plus we would only have to teach them about the New Testament!)

[A. Pole]

They do not recognise the visible Church with the unbroken Apostolic Succesion, Tradition and continuous sacramental life.

Is there a reason WHY they do this?

Very simple - they became Christian through the contact with Protestants so they accepted the tenets of American Protestantism with some peculiarities of their own (each of numerous Protestant churches has some specific beliefs or practices which puts it apart from others).

I did some search and it appears that they were founded by Moishe Rosen who converted to Baptism. So this would explain the similarities to the main stream Baptism.

[A.J.Armitage]

Look, I know you can go and find some kind of churchy website that proposes to refute that Christianity and Mithraism or other pagan rites have anything in common, but you can also find web pages that say that Muhammad is really the last prophet, and other web pages that say they were both space aliens, if you look hard enough.

Nice attempt to poison the well.

The fact is, you can torture any religion for similarities to Christianity. It doesn't prove anything.

The resurrection myth goes back to the Sumerian creation epic, Enuma Elish.

What "resurrection myth"? Someone rose from the dead? People rose from the dead in the Old Testament too. Oh, and please provide a source.

Osiris followers found salvation in death and his rebirth. 1,400 years earlier.

They lived on in the spirit world by funerary rites as Osiris had after being murdered by Set. Other than dealing with vaguely similar subjects, what does this have to do with Christianity?

Krishna was born from a Virgin.

Source, please.

Frigga was impregnated by Odin and bore Balder, a healer who was to save mankind.

And who was Frigga? A goddess, not a human virgin. And Balder was to heal mankind until what? Until he got killed with a mistletoe dart. "Well... uh... there's wood involved! Just like the Crucifixion!"

Baptism in water was already a common pagan ritual.

1) Source please.

2) Explain why this "common pagan ritual" had more to do with Christian baptism than the baptism practiced by the Jews (the mikva).

Mithras followers found salvation in the blood of a Bull.

And what does this have to do with Christianity?

BTW, the Tauroctony probably has more to do with constellations than salvation.

[cookcounty]

You're right, I paraphrased (however badly) what I understood as your argument. I apologize if it innaccurately reflects your line of thought.

[A. Pole]

Oh just admit it, the title is hokey and manipulative, and too Madison Avenue.

Maybe it is or maybe it is not, but I can understand why their name could be annoying to the Jews who want to resist the assimilation. My disagreement with them is that I do not agree with Protestant theology. Also I find their stress on Jewish ethnicity a little confusing but if they find it important, who am I to judge?