Jewish and Christian leaders launch countermissionary campaign [Fighting "Jews for Jesus" people]

Jerusalem Post ^ | Aug. 27, 2003

[DannyTN]

I am curious. Private message me, if you don't want to say it publicly.

Either way, as a Christian, I would not condone going into a synagogue uninvited and disrupting it. Unless it's Jesus running the moneychangers out of the temple.

[Eva]

The only member of the Jews for Jesus that I ever met was a Jewish opera singer who came to our church to speak because he used to sing with my mother's cousin and was then doing evangelical singing ministry.

[USMMA_83]

Most of the Christian rituals, etc. are Zororastrian.

[cookcounty]

Oooops, I meant to address 119 to Imal, not Dan. Ibeg forgiveness.

[TheOtherOne]

In the name of preserving religious freedom in America, you are failing in your patriotic duty if you have not filed a lawsuit over these events. I can get you a pro bono lawyer.

What would be the legal basis for a lawsuit?

[keats5]

"The term 'Jews for Jesus' makes about as much sense as 'Baptists for Buddha' or 'Catholics for Krishna,'" she said.

It makes more sense than an Atheistic Jew.

[DannyTN]

"Most of the Christian rituals, etc. are Zororastrian. "

How do you figure? There are not really a whole lot of Christian rituals. Baptism and the Lord's supper are the main two.

Baptism is linked to repentance and was preached by John the Baptist who was considered a prophet by many in the Jewish community.

The Lord's supper was commanded by Jesus Himself.

[keats5]

"One of the main tennants of Judism is that the messiah has not come, and we're still waiting for that event. When one acknowledges that Jesus is the messiah, then that person has abandoned his faith for another."

But what if Jesus Is Messiah? Would Jews then cease to be Jews if they then believed?

[Bobby777]

excellent story. that's a keeper.

[cookcounty]

"Most of the Christian rituals, etc. are Zororastrian."

Hmmm. "Communion" is closely based on the "Last Supper" of Jesus---- the Passover Seder that took place the evening before the Romans soldiers crowned him with thorns, mocked and whipped him then nailed him to the execution stake. And Passover is no way based on Zoroastrianism.

"Baptism:" This is based on the Jewish ritual mikveh bath that represents cleansing or repentance. Next time you go to Jerusalem, check out the ruins of these baths just outside the current south wall of the city, between the "Dung" Gate and "Zion" Gate.

I don't believe the Zoroastrians practiced the salvation story of Passover, or an immersion of repentance. Please point me to where I can be disabused of this belief.

[cookcounty]

Trespassing, disturbing the peace. One does NOT have the right to go into a church or synagogue or mosque (or for that matter, a porno theatre) and disrupt the service. This ain't Soviet Russia. I'm serious about bringing charges. Our religious freedoms are absolutely fundamental to our society. They need to be defended at every juncture. You should have called the police.

[Imal]

Thanks for your inquiry. Rather than PM it, though, I guess I may as well "come out of the closet". I'd been meaning to for a while, anyway, and this particular case seems tailor-made for me, as you shall see.

The reason I know what I know about Jews for Jesus is this: I encountered them while converting from Christianity to Judaism. I was not born Jewish, have no Jewish relatives that I know of (all staunch Protestants, thank you very much), and no particularly strong exposure to Jewish culture. The story of why I converted is, literally, another story, too long to print here, I think.

It was while I was studying for my conversion that they came to our synagogue over the course of three consecutive daytime Sabbath services, apparently as part of a campaign.

Don't get me wrong, it was not like these guys marched into the synagogue carrying crosses and singing "Onward Christian Soldiers". In total, only two of them ever came to our synagogue. And in fairness, they were neither loud nor obnoxious, although on the last occasion, when both of them showed up, they seemed a bit, well, desparate.

How did I know they were from JfJ? As I said, I asked. As far as I know, I was the only one who did so directly, and I asked them point-blank. I knew about Jews for Jesus because Christian members of my family kept trying to get me to talk to these guys during and after my conversion (they have finally given up).

Their methods were "disruptive" in the sense that they took advantage of the fact that any Jew may speak freely in synagogue, even if doing so during actual services is considered somewhat rude.

In the case of the JfJ evangelists, they did not interrupt the prayers, but rather made interjections during the part of the service where the rabbi would give his "sermon", discussing the day's reading of the Torah and its significance. During this portion of the service the JfJ guys, dutifully dressed up in their tallitot and kippot, would occasionally ask leading questions.

Sometimes the questions were subtle, and sometimes they were not so subtle, like "so doesn't that prove that Jesus was the Messiah?", and so forth. After the services, the rabbi would gather the Judaism students (myself included), to discuss aspects of Judaism that were laid out in our course curriculum (literally called Judaism 101). This was when one of the guys really got annoying, almost hijacking the discussion. After three lessons affected this way, the rabbi finally took the guy aside for a private discussion and, as best I can tell, must have asked him to leave, because I never saw him again.

I was a Christian for 25 years. When I accepted Jesus as my personal savior at age 15, I felt the unmistakable wash of joy us Christians always talked about. But I never truly felt connected to God Himself. And God knows, I tried. Oh how I tried to understand and make sense of it, and believe! But the connection just didn't get made. I was not in touch with God.

To describe all the circumstances surrounding my conversion and the reasons for it would take up a rather large post unto itself. Suffice it to say that for me, Judaism is the way to connect with God, and Christianity is not. At age 40, my prayers were finally, truly answered.

Don't get me wrong, I gained many insights as a Christian, and don't regret my time as a Christian at all. But it took understanding God from the perspective of Judaism, and as a son of the covenant between God and Israel, for me to finally hear His voice. Now when I talk to God, he really answers! Still amazes me. frankly.

But don't mistake my testimony as claming that Judaism is the "One True Faith". Ask any Jew. It's not. It's the one true faith for Jews, that's all.

If Christianity works for you, and leads you to God, then it's your one true faith. And that's why we Jews don't come into Christian churches, ring your doorbells or call you on the phone to come convert to Judaism. It is our job to be a "light unto the nations", not to make them all Jewish.

[USMMA_83]

There are two types of thread that I wish I never read, but like a moth drawn to a flame, I venture in. This thread happens to be one of them. The problem Sir, is that we do not speak the same language. I read many books, I travel, I speak many languages. This sphere of exposure leads me to certain conclusions that just can't be communicated - they have to be exprienced. If all you want out of life is salvation for the afterlife - Sir, I wish you godspeed.

[Imal]

In the name of preserving religious freedom in America, you are failing in your patriotic duty if you have not filed a lawsuit over these events. I can get you a pro bono lawyer.

See my "expose" post for details. In sum, what the two guys from JfJ did was tasteless and perhaps rude, but by no means illegal. Anyone may speak freely in the synagogue, whether Jewish or not.

Pelting the rabbi with questions about Jesus during his sermon is disruptive, IMO, and as a former Christian, I was embarrassed.

However, my soon-to-be fellow Jews were amazingly tolerant, and no one so much as said an unkind word to these guys. Apparently, this wasn't the first time this had happened, but no one really wanted to talk about it.

This was also over a year and a half ago, and I have since moved and am no longer a member of that shul.

In any case, there is no cause for action, just cause for comment in situations like these. :^)

[Imal]

There are two types of thread that I wish I never read, but like a moth drawn to a flame, I venture in.

LOL! Tell me about it. And here we both are.

Maybe we should form a twelve-step group. :^)

[Bobby777]

If you knew how much people calling themselves "christians" and carrying crosses beat the crap out of Jews over and over again for centuries, you'd not take this attitude.

there is truth that this happened and many were killed ... completely contrary to Christ's teaching and example and not to be found in the New Testament at all ... not one bit ... Christians were never called to persecute (i.e. physically abuse, torture or kill) anyone, especially Jews (Romans 11:25-29) ...

[A.J.Armitage]

The Original Jews for Jesus

[TheOtherOne]

Trespassing, disturbing the peace.

Thanks for answering. I agree. I was wondering what kind of civil charges you were thinking of as you mentioned an attorney. But this would have made more sense.

[A.J.Armitage]

But many people seem to assume that Jews are a race or a nationality and not simply a religious group bound by a common faith.

Which wouldn't have anything to do with the "if your mother is Jewish..." rule, would it?

[caprock]

I have not stopped being a Jew by accepting Christ as my savior.

And no true Christian should expect you to abandon your heritage. How could you anyway?

I've listened to some JFJ speakers, and found them to be right on track with the New Testament Gospels. The insight from their heritage greatly enriches their Gospel presentation. Who could honestly disagree with their mission?

Like the flak Mel Gibson's "PASSION" movie is receiving, the resistance JFJ is experiencing validates its mission. The unrepentant world always has and always will hate Jesus' efforts to redeem His lost sheep.