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To: rwfromkansas
in other words, you want me to weaken my case to make your pathetic one look better.

If you can't make your case in less than 10,000 words, you can't make it, because nobody's going to read your post, except a few who agree with you.

428 posted on 08/21/2003 11:50:51 AM PDT by sinkspur (Get two dogs and be part of a pack!)
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To: sinkspur
The history of the First Amendment’s adoption provides important insight into its intent. James Madison introduced the First Amendment in the House of Representatives June 8, 1789, with the original text reading: “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed” (Annals of Congress). By August 15, it read: “No religion shall be established by law, nor shall the equal rights of conscience be infringed.” Importantly, in the debate that day, Roger Sherman is recorded in the Annals as thinking, since Congress had no power to establish religious establishments, an amendment to forbid it was unnecessary. Such was the belief of both Madison and Jefferson. In a significant announcement, Madison explained the intent of his amendment recorded in the Annals for August 15, as it is recorded that “He apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience.” Nothing in this explanation supports a contention that the federal government could not ever pass an act supporting religion in general, even perhaps generally the Christian religion. Madison (who in some cases seems to broadly interpret “establish”) very narrowly construes the meaning of establish in the amendment.

Of course, this amendment went through further changes. An example is the final draft of the House version in the Annals for August 20, 1789: "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; nor shall the rights of conscience be infringed." A person attempted to alter the amendment in the Senate to stop any “state” from doing such, not just Congress. However, the motion failed. The final version in the Senate (from the Annals of Congress for September 9) read as follows: "Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith, or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion.” It should be noted that the Senate beat back attempts to alter the language to prohibit the establishment of a particular “denomination” (Annals, September 3). One major First Amendment authority believes that rejecting the wording of "denomination" shows that the narrow constructionist view of the establishment clause was rejected (Stokes & Pfeffer). However, in the very final Senate version quoted above, the legislators did narrowly construct the amendment. Congress is only forbidden from establishing articles of faith and manner of worship, not a broad restriction in any sense of the word. Furthermore, a consistent wording in changes to the First Amendment as offered initially is the banning of acts “establishing” a religion (an example is the House version), putting in doubt the statement of one author that any law even touching upon something of a religious nature is unconstitutional.
467 posted on 08/21/2003 12:08:49 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
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To: sinkspur; lugsoul
In regards to the extent that the First Amendment applies to the states:

After the Barron case ruling the states were not responsible to adhere to th First Amendment, in Permoli v. Municipality No. 1 of the City of New Orleans (1845), the Supreme Court reaffirmed the doctrine that the First Amendment did not restrict the actions of states. The court said the following in its ruling:

"There is no repugnancy to the constitution, because no provision thereof forbids the enactment of law or ordinance, under state authority, in reference to religion. The limitation of power in the first amendment of the Constitution is upon Congress, and not the states."

The Slaughterhouse cases (1873, after the 14th Amendment) found that states have the right to restrict some rights and that state citizenship is different from federal citizenship. Thus, in this case, the 14th Amendment was not considered to make the BOR apply to the states.

Furthermore:

State debates on the 14th Amendment do not express even a hint of a belief that the amendment would make the BOR apply to the states, thus prohibiting more religious expressions by states than was forbidden before. There is no evidence the people debating state ratification were worried or were pleased that this might be a result of the amendment.

In Davis v. Beason, the Supreme Court REJECTED one defense that the 14th Amendment applied to the states the First Amendment and that polygamy was thus protected.

The Blaine Amendment failed, with NOT ONE PERSON speaking up and saying "hey, we don't even need this, as the 14th Amendment already does it."

It was not until 1947 that the establishment clause was applied to the states by the SCOTUS.

I believe it was 1925 IIRC that the SCOTUS first applied the BOR to the states (free speech first).







490 posted on 08/21/2003 12:23:30 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
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