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To: DittoJed2
If man arose by means of chance random mutation followed by natural selection, then there is no more value in human beings than in any other creature.

By the same logic, there is no more value in a dog than a bacterium. Clearly that's false; people, including atheists, love their dogs. But more importantly, why does people's origin have to determine how we value them? If a baby is placed on our doorstep because the mother randomly chose a place to abandon it, does that mean the baby has no value?

And, without a moral law from above, the result is an unstable democracy.

The countries of Scandinavia are thriving democracies, and have been for a long time, yet active religious observance is under 5% in all of them. In contrast, Germany, Spain and Italy are far more religious, and yet all three have been fascist in the last 60 years. There seems to be little correlation between religiosity and democracy.

2,627 posted on 08/25/2003 12:18:30 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor
Off for a while.
2,630 posted on 08/25/2003 12:21:14 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor
If man arose by means of chance random mutation followed by natural selection, then there is no more value in human beings than in any other creature.

By the same logic, there is no more value in a dog than a bacterium.

You are catching on. That is exactly what I'm saying is the logical implication of Evolution.

Clearly that's false; people, including atheists, love their dogs. But more importantly, why does people's origin have to determine how we value them? If a baby is placed on our doorstep because the mother randomly chose a place to abandon it, does that mean the baby has no value? Okay, first you say it is false. Then, you prove my point- it is people's preference that assigns value. In a world without a tangible moral code then morality is decided by society. A more important question is how, in an evolutionary scheme of things, can you assign value to a baby apart from human preference and opinion? Lots of people abort their babies. Who can say they are wrong in evolutionary dogma? Truly, evolution puts man on the same scale as all other animals and his only value is that he may be more highly evolved than the rest and able to contribute more to a society- but what framework exists that says that contribution to society is a good thing?

And, without a moral law from above, the result is an unstable democracy.

The countries of Scandinavia are thriving democracies, and have been for a long time, yet active religious observance is under 5% in all of them.

I would still venture to say that their foundations included Scriptural morals.

In contrast, Germany, Spain and Italy are far more religious, and yet all three have been fascist in the last 60 years. There seems to be little correlation between religiosity and democracy.

No, all three included evolutionist whackos who paraded under the banner of religiosity. Today, all three countries have a very low percentage of bible-believing Christians in their borders. In fact, a little research into the countries reveals their declining religiousity
"

Spain:Roman Catholicism is professed by about 97 percent of the population. The country is divided into 11 metropolitan and 52 suffragan sees. In addition, the archdioceses of Barcelona and Madrid are directly responsible to the Holy See. Formerly, Roman Catholicism was the established church, but the 1978 constitution decreed that Spain shall have no state religion, while recognizing the role of the Roman Catholic Church in Spanish society. There are small communities of Protestants, Jews, and Muslims. The shadow of the Inquisition still lies over Spain. The church during this time became associated with tyranny and bigotry, and this is one of the underlying causes of the widespread disillusionment with religion. Over 50% of those baptized as Catholics no longer retain links with the Church. The spiritual vacuum is being filled by foreign cults. There almost as many active Jehovah’s Witnesses as Protestant church members. The Mormons are doubling their numbers every five years. There are estimated to be 300 cults active – 30 being Satanist.

Religion in Germany plays a fairly small role in society. Church attendance in Germany is much lower than that in the United States. Over 69% (21.6% of the overall population in Germany) of the population of the former Eastern Germany have no links with any church. Under German law, all churches are supported by a modest church tax that is collected by the state

Roman Catholics, mainly concentrated in the south, make up about 34 percent of the German population. Protestants, the great majority of whom are Lutherans, make up about 35 percent of the people and live primarily in the north. There are numerous signs of spiritual ill-health in the nation. Humanism and destructive criticism of the Bible opened the way to compromise and a pagan Nazi tyranny in the 20th Century. The loneliness, pointlessness and emptiness of life has driven many people to alcohol, drugs, astrology, occultism and New Age thinking. The Church is perceived as no longer relevant to their needs.

Italy

The dominant religion of Italy is Roman Catholicism, the faith of about 98 percent of the people. However, the Catholic church's role in Italy is declining; only about 25 percent of Italians attend mass regularly, and a law ratified in 1985 abolished Roman Catholicism as the official state religion and ended mandatory religious instruction in public schools. The constitution guarantees freedom of worship to the religious minorities, which are primarily Protestant, Muslim, and Jewish. Occultism is widespread, and there are reckoned to be 100,000 full-time consulting magicians- three times the number of Catholic priests. Satanism is strong in the north, Turin being one of the major global centers for its activities, which include praying for the removal of all evangelical missionaries from the country. Many Italians despise and ignore the Church, nevertheless its traditions and mind-set still permeate every aspect of national life, and church attendance remains one of the highest in Europe. In their disillusionment, many have turned to New Age thinking, cults, the occult and drugs. (telleurope.org)
2,663 posted on 08/25/2003 12:45:19 PM PDT by DittoJed2
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To: Right Wing Professor
Yet, in America, our stable representative democracy becomes more and more unstable only as the religiosity of a nation founded upon Judeo Christian values grows dimmer and dimmer. Where Judeo-Christianity thrives, so does representative democracy. Where it doesn't, degeneration occurs.
2,667 posted on 08/25/2003 12:47:37 PM PDT by DittoJed2
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