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To: Alamo-Girl
The book of Enoch was copied in Aramaic language in 200-150 B.C. (presumably it was previously written in Aramaic or translated from Hebrew.)

We need to look at the larger historical context. Alexander liberated Israel from the Persian empire around 300 BC, and from that point forward (well before the Enoch copy) the Jews traveled freely in the Greek world and many became culturally Hellenized. It's not remarkable that the ideas of one culture could have influenced the other. As for traveling around, the distances weren't all that great. A few days by ship. Not a big deal. I don't see any great historical paradox here.

2,293 posted on 08/23/2003 2:52:05 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: PatrickHenry
The non separation of state and religion is called fascism ... we see the atheist - liberal AYATOLLA variety here !

Sharia science - politics ... evolution (( iran -- ussc - mullahs )) !

Sharia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Sharia or Shariah is the body of religious law governing the Sunni and Shia branch of Islam. Islam draws no distinction between religious and secular life, and hence Sharia covers not only religious rituals and the administration of the faith, but every aspect of day-to-day life.

History and Background

The authority of Sharia is drawn from two major and two lesser sources. The first major source is specific guidance laid down in the Qur'an, and the second source is the Sunnah, literally the 'Way', i.e. the way that Muhammad (the Prophet of Islam) lived his life. (The compilation of all what Muhammad said, did, or approved of is called the Hadith.) A lesser source of authority is Qiyas, which is the extension by analogy of existing Sharia law to new situations.

Finally Sharia law can be based on ijma, or consensus. Justification for this final approach is drawn from the Hadith where Muhammad states; "My nation cannot agree on an error." The umma, or community of Muslims, comes together with each applying his or ijtihad, or independent thought and judgement, to achieve this consensus. The role of ulema, i.e. scholars, is critical, since they are the ones who studies the Islamic law and therefore are the ones with authority to represent it.

The comprehensive nature of Sharia law is due to the belief that the law must provide all that is necessary for a person's spiritual and physical well-being. All possible actions of a Muslim are divided (in principle) into five categories: obligatory, meritorious, permissible, reprehensible, and forbidden. Fundamental to the obligations of every muslim are the Five Pillars of Islam.

In theory, there is no conflict between the process as outlined by Muhammad and very progressive and consultative political movements, e.g. green parties.

In fact, the latter even defined Four Pillars of the Green Party, to some degree in imitation of Islam's Five Pillars, and in admiration of the idea of a * consensus-driven process * of the whole community coming to some well-reasoned conclusion compatible with science and scholarship.

* In practice, however, there is often incredible tension between conservative, liberal or secular forces: *

Practice of Sharia

Most countries of the Middle East and north Africa maintain a dual system of secular courts and religious courts, in which the religious courts mainly regulate marriage and inheritance. Saudi Arabia and Iran maintain only religious courts for all aspects of jurisprudence. Sharia is also used in Sudan, Libya and for a time in modern Afghanistan. Some states in northern Nigeria have reintroduced Sharia courts.

For detailed information you can consult the Sharia News Watch http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shariawatch/ , that provides a regular update of newsquotes on the Sharia (or: shari'ah, syariah, or shariat), the news items are organized per country.

In practice these have most often meant the re-introduction of spectacular and gruesome punishments (such as amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, or stoning for adultery) without respecting the much tougher rules of evidence and testimony (including the necessity of four eyewitnesses, with women's testimony counting less than that of a man). Such measures are usually introduced to gain support of local ulema who are often community leaders in rural areas. Their examples are not always humane or even reasonable. Muslim scholars tend to agree that Muhammad himself would not run courts along these lines in an otherwise secular society, nor introduce these punishments into societies rich enough to afford prisons and rehabilitation, cohesive enough to prevent those accused from being killed by outraged victims and communities.

Like Jewish law and Christian canon law, Islamic law has no one, set meaning for all time and places. In the hands of moderates, religious law can be moderate, even liberal. In the hands of post-Englightenment readers of philosophy, religious law is relegated to ritual (as opposed to law in a civil sense), or even to just being history.

* In the hands of zealots, it becomes legally enforced against all people of a faith, and even against all people that come under their control.*

Islamic law to American Muslims in Boston is a very different thing than Islamic law to religious Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Gaza, or Pakistan. Both are following Islamic law, yet it varies as much as individual Muslims vary. (As is true for Jews and Christians, etc.)

my comments ...

The founding fathers established govt to perpetuate religious liberty NOT persecution ... how does separation of religion and politics mean God also --- only if you are an atheist nazi liberal zealot does that make sense !

We need separation of state and liberals --- ATHEISM - zombies - tyranny !


2,294 posted on 08/23/2003 3:08:22 PM PDT by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: PatrickHenry; Right Wing Professor
Thank you for the additional information!

I realize you do not see a paradox here - and I have found one scholar (Chris King) who also dismisses it with a Hellenistic hand wave. But the other scholars I've read are not so easily convinced.

Here are some of my "digs" (I found the first two sections online in several places and didn't select for the 'best' source.)

Enoch: a brief textual history

The third Enochian book, the Book of Astronomy, is considered the oldest of those preserved, thought to have been written well before the second century. It contains a description of the structure of the universe as well as the details of a 364 day solar calendar, a calendar that seems to have been popular especially in the Dead Sea Scrolls although it is well supported by another pseudepigraphic book, Jubilees.

The Apocryphal Book of Enoch

"Chaps. 72-82 The Astronomical Book, like the Book of Watchers, may date from the third century BCE; the oldest copy of it seems to have been made not long after 200 BCE. Sizable portions of the text are preserved on four copies, written in Aramaic, from Qumran cave 4. The Aramaic original appears to have been much different and much longer than the Ethiopic text, adding far more astronomical details." - James C. Vanderkam

1 Enoch is an unmistakable product of Hellenistic civilization. A world view so encyclopaediac that it embraced the geography of heaven and earth, astronomy, meteorology, medicine was no part of Jewish tradition - but was familiar to educated Greeks, but attempting to emulate and surpass Greek wisdom, by having an integrating divine plan for destiny, elaborated through an angelic host with which Enoch is in communication through his mystical travels. - Chris King.

"One of the most remarkable features of 1 Enoch is that the law revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai plays almost no part in it at all. It could be objected that it would be more surprising if it did have a role, since 1 Enoch is, of course, about Enoch who lived before the flood (see Gen 5:21-24) and thus long before the law was revealed. The argument would be that the authors of 1 Enoch were consistent about their pseudepigraphic attribution of the material to Enoch and therefore did not commit the anachronism of having him teach and obey the law of Moses.

"But there is a flaw in that argument because at least two places in the book should mention the law revealed on Mt. Sinai. The two places are in the two principal apocalypses, the Apocalypse of Weeks and the Animal Apocalypse. Both of these revelations cover the period when Israel was in the wilderness and, according to the pentateuch, received the covenantal law." - James C. Vanderkam

The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha volume I - Charlesworth

“Some scholars believe that the original language of 1 Enoch is Hebrew; others, however, think it is Aramaic; still others contend that the book, like Daniel, was composed partly in Hebrew and partly in Aramaic.”

“We are not certain about the city or place in which 1 Enoch was, or its constituent parts were, composed. However, it is clear that the work originated in Judea and was in use at Qumran before the beginning of the Christian period.”

One comment with regard to Vanderkam's comment: the Enochian Apocalypse of Weeks is a prophesy (forward looking) and thus, IMHO, would not contain more than it does:

93.1 And, after this, Enoch began to speak from the books:

93.2 And Enoch said: "Concerning the sons of righteousness, and concerning the chosen of the world, and concerning the plant of righteousness and uprightness, I will speak these things to you, and make them known to you, my children. I, Enoch, according to that which appeared to me in the Heavenly vision, and that which I know from the words of the Holy Angels, and understanding from the Tablets of Heaven."

93.3 And Enoch then began to speak from the books, and said: "I was born the seventh, in the first week, while justice and righteousness still lasted.

93.4 And, after me, in the second week, great injustice will arise, and deceit will have sprung up. And in it there will be the First End, and in it, a man will be saved. And after it has ended, iniquity will grow, and He will make a law for the sinners.

93.5 And after this in the third week, at its end, a man will be chosen as the Plant of Righteous Judgment, and after him will come the Plant of Righteousness, forever.

93.6 And after this, in the fourth week, at its end, visions of the righteous and Holy will be seen, and a Law for All Generations, and an enclosure will be made for them.

93.7 And after this, in the fifth week, at its end, a House of Glory and Sovereignty will be built forever.

93.8 And after this, in the sixth week, all those who live in it will be blinded. And the hearts of them all, lacking wisdom, will sink into impiety. And in it, a man will ascend, and at its end the House of Sovereignty will be burnt with fire. And in it the whole race of the chosen root will be scattered.

93.9 And after this, in the seventh week, an apostate generation will arise. And many will be its deeds - but all its deeds will be apostasy.

93.10 And at its end, the Chosen Righteous, from the Eternal Plant of Righteousness, will be chosen, to whom will be given sevenfold teaching, concerning his whole creation.

The other thing of course is that over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedence in Enoch and Enoch is quoted directly in Jude. So, to the New Testament - Enoch is authentic. The difficulty after 2,000 years is piecing together "the" Enoch.

2,318 posted on 08/23/2003 8:07:39 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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