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To: VadeRetro; AndrewC; Physicist; betty boop; Phaedrus; RadioAstronomer; Aric2000; Da_Shrimp
Er, since y’all have been talking about gravity …

Recently, Freeper betty boop speculated on the possibility of an extra time dimension. That is to say, in addition to the 4 dimension view which includes a time dimension, what if there were an additional, 5th dimension of time?

As soon as she mentioned it, it rang true to my Spirit and all sorts of pieces started falling together.

Extra time dimensions have previously been shunned by physics basically because instead of the time dimension in 4D being a line - this occurs before that - from the viewpoint of an extra dimension, that timeline becomes a plane and past, present, future are all accessible. This means that cause and effect can be inverted to effect and cause thus unsettling the most fundamental concept of causation.

Nevertheless, it rings true because....

Dark matter which represents 23% of the mass of the universe is like ordinary matter (Higgs boson/field theory, etc.) which represents 4% in that they are both characterized by positive gravity. Dark matter is a more extreme manifestation in space, e.g. black holes and massive neutrinos (if any.) Dark Matters: New Telescope to seek elusive matter and energy.

On the other hand, dark energy which represents 73% of the mass of the universe is characterized by negative gravity and thus, acceleration.

And much like there is a duality between particle and wave - there is a "duality" between gravity (field) and space/time.

In fact, one should view gravity as a warping of space/time that causes objects to orbit and spin into the space/time indentation caused by higher, positive gravity. Conversely, viewed as an indentation of space/time a certain escape velocity is necessary to free ordinary matter from the indentation. In black holes, not even light has sufficient escape velocity.

When we look at gravity as space/time then Einstein's desire to transmute the "base wood" of matter into the "pure marble" of geometry becomes accessible.

In the space "vacuum" which accounts for 73% of the mass of the universe, gravity (space/time) is negative, causing acceleration and strongly suggesting something else factoring into the balance. betty boop's extra time dimension fits that speculation to a "T". Constraints on extra time dimensions

Moreover, it potentially utterly solves the mysteries of non-locality, superposition and absence of dark energy in local space.

Concerning non-locality, since time would be a plane instead of a line, superluminal activity would be expected. With regard to superposition (Schrodinger's cat) all states would exist from the aspect of the extra time dimension, the determination of one being currently relevant only in the 4D block. Moreover, because the 4D plane of time is accessible by the extra time dimension - not only present and future events in the 4D block become malleable, but past as well - though, of course, none would notice such a change in 4D.

Finally, gravity (which represents space/time) would be the necessary coupling between the 4D block and the extra time dimension. Where activity is sparse, i.e. the "vacuum" of space, gravity would locate towards the extra time dimension, appearing negative in 4D, a space/time "outdent" which causes acceleration.

And for Grandpierre, Menas Kafatos and Robert Nadeau and others who seek an integrative science, the extra time dimension potentially hosts consciousness and resolves any issue concerning a renewing of the cycle of the evolution of consciousness, i.e. top down and also bottom up concurrently.

And because an extra time dimension yields our familiar 4D spacetime as a block --- and hence, the time dimension therein as a plane rather than a line --- it also potentially explains virtually all psychic phenomenon - remote healing, near death experiences, precognition, retrocognition, extrasensory perception, extra body experiences, etc.

And if all of that were not enough, it also reconciles very nicely with Scripture, including how there can be both predestination and free will!

Just some “food for thought” …

1,143 posted on 08/18/2003 7:51:00 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
From one of your links (Constraints on extra time dimensions):

We discuss phenomenology of extra time dimensions in a scenario where the standard model particles are localized in \our" time, whereas gravity can propagate in all time dimensions. For an odd number of extra times, at small distances, the (real part of the) Newtonian potential is \screened" by tachyonic Kaluza-Klein gravitons. In general, the gravitational self-energy of objects acquires an imaginary part. This complexity may either be interpreted as an amplitude for the disappearance into \nothing", leading to the causality and probability violation in low-energy processes, or as an artifact of the ctitious decay into the unphysical negative energy tachyons.
Never mind how you fit it in, I just want to know how you can read that stuff! "Tachyonic Kaluza-Klein gravitons!" Then, if you can wade through the English, there's the math!

I'll wait for the layman's version. ;)

1,173 posted on 08/18/2003 8:43:02 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Alamo-Girl
Having two (or more) time-like dimensions doesn't create a problem with causality. The metric in ordinary 4-space is dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 -dt^2 if one is in a reference frame where the metric is diagonal (not moving too quickly works in most cases.) (dx means a difference in the x-coordinate, etc.) In moving frames (according to Einstein and Lorentz) one would have a quadratic form (dx,dy,dz,dt)^2(transpose)A(dx,dy,xz,dt) where A is a matrix with 3 non-negative eigenvalues and 1-non positive eigenvalue. If the metric is positive, the distance is space-like, if negative, time-like. Space-like separations are not causally connected. (In the sense of cause effeciens.)

A 5-dimensional metric would just be dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 - dt^2 - dw^2 (where w is the other time-like coordinate.) A positive distance is still space like and a negative distance timelike.

The real reason for (mostly) ignoring these models is that so far, they don't predict things actually observed.

Something I have thought about (but can't find in the literature) is the problem of how to do a Minkowskiation of the metric with two time coordinates. For example, normally one just uses, the coordinates (x,y,z,it) with i^2=-1. This works fine with one time coordinate. Using two corrdinates one may suggest (x,y,z,it,jw) where j^2=-1 too. Using iw would make the time coordinated indistinguishable. Now there is an algebraic problem; what is i*j? Hamilton (mid 1800s) discovered that there must be another term (k) where k^2=-1 and to be consistent, ij=k. I'm not sure this has physical meaning, but there seems to be a reason to think that having two time-like dimensions implies three such.

One may have to write out a complete Clifford algebra to make sense of this. Still, the predicted consequences aren't so far observed.
1,198 posted on 08/18/2003 9:36:55 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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