XM-8: New U.S. Service Rifle?

Modern Firearms and Ammunition website ^ | unknown | Unknown

[Travis McGee]

I agree with that! It worked well enough on Iwo Jima!

And I still think that a platoon of elite troops armed with Ruger Mini-14s, or M1 Carbines for that matter, will utterly destroy a platoon of unmotivated conscripts armed with XM-8s. And after that encounter, they'll have the better weapons if they want them.

Even so, I'm all for issuing the XM-8 for all of the listed reasons.

But really, considering the type of mounted and dismounted warfare we're involved in, and the need to penetrate mud and cinder block walls etc, I think it's time to dump the 5.56 altogether. The old rationales for 5.56mm no longer apply, and the caliber is now deficient, no matter how nice the bullet launcher employed.

[archy]

It may be a better rifle, but the improvement will only be at the margins. The big jump will be in fielding the range finding exploding 20mm. I think the mistake was for the Army to try to tie it all into the dual-weapon OICW, instead of fielding the 20mm in a stand alone version like the M-79. Work the bugs out of that 20mm, put a 20mm (grenadier? rifleman?) in every squad. That could lead to a real revolution in infantry arms.

True enough, though at least two other possibilities look like real fun: one is the M8 fitted with an M203 [or derivitive 40mm grenade launcher. The airburst-fuzed 20mm may be swell for troops behing scrub brush concealment or lurling around upper story windows, but the armor penetrative capability of the HEDP round has some swell capabilities that the 20mm round may be lacking.

Then there's the Barrett version of the 25mm *payload rifle* the XM107/XM109. That too has possibilities, whether eventually used in concert with the OICW/M8, or on their own when a little something extra is required.

-archy-/-

[Woahhs]

Check out H&K's website...they have some videos of the rifle being fired and tested.

Oh Good Lord! No muzzle rise! And it doesn't even use that dopey looking gum-ball machine action of the AK-100!

[Travis McGee]

Man, in 20mm, 25mm or 40mm, there's going to be UXO out the yingyang on the battlefield!

[archy]

Man, in 20mm, 25mm or 40mm, there's going to be UXO out the yingyang on the battlefield!

Plus the Laser-guided mortar rounds that get caught by the wind and land sideways, or in mud or soft sand. More noisy stuff around to not step on at night.

[Lurker]

You won't need more than one spare mag for that Ishapore. The originals are built like a ....well they're really built.

Remind me to email you a pic of the one I built.

I wish I'd bought half a dozen of them when they were available for 110 US.

L

[Long Cut]

"But really, considering the type of mounted and dismounted warfare we're involved in, and the need to penetrate mud and cinder block walls etc, I think it's time to dump the 5.56 altogether. The old rationales for 5.56mm no longer apply, and the caliber is now deficient, no matter how nice the bullet launcher employed."

Very true. Heck, this thread started out with a discussion of how much better a .243 Winchester or .260 would be as a standard round.

Thing is, then you've got to convince ALL the NATO and other allied countries to switch, which means switching ALL those rifles, SAWs, and belts and magazines as well. It would seem that they're not quite ready to go that far, or expend that much money just yet, especially since some nations simply could not afford to do so at all.

From the articles, it seems clear that, for now, the approach that they're taking is to see how much the effectiveness of the .223 round can be increased via different weights and loads, and of course, adding a grenade launcher.

Just for the standardization issue alone, I wouldn't expect a total cartridge switch for at least another generation. Sad, really, as standardization was intended to SOLVE problems, not cause them.

Fact is, American civilian shooters always led the way on new rounds for the military. We always had the best, up until we had to clear it all through the Euros.

[Travis McGee]

Very true! BTW, Armalite makes a .243 AR-10. That would be fun, even if it would be an "orphan."

[Long Cut]

Yeah, I saw that one. In fact, one of the reasons (among many) for hoping against hope for thr sunset of the Ban is a renewed innovation on the part of the manufacturers of semiautos. They could also build appropriate magazines for "different-caliber" rifles.

How about an AR-180 in .243? Or an FN-FAL in the original chambering, .280? Springfield might even be convinced to make M1As in some other calibers, as well. With the Ban consigned to the ashheap of history, such toys might even become profitable enough to explore.

It always sort of rankled me that those of us who love military-styled rifles had to content ourselves with only two or three major calibers.

[archy]

How about an AR-180 in .243? Or an FN-FAL in the original chambering, .280? Springfield might even be convinced to make M1As in some other calibers, as well. With the Ban consigned to the ashheap of history, such toys might even become profitable enough to explore.

It always sort of rankled me that those of us who love military-styled rifles had to content ourselves with only two or three major calibers.

That final development of the .280 British cartridge used in developmental versions of the FAL [and the British EM-2 bullpup] was known as the .280/30, as it was arranged with the bolt face and rim dimensions of the .308/.30-06 cartridge, but with a 7mm bullet in a 43mm case....interestingly, one short enough to be used in a M16's action...or possibly, an M8's?

The EM-2 is one of the half-dozen rifles I'd really, REALLY like to have to play with. And a couple of posssibilities utilizing that same configuration come to mind if the *assault weapons ban* sunsets...or if the constitution from which those laws take their legitimacy is no longer a valid contract as to the conduct of governmental activity.

And in which case, a good rifle could be useful for much more than *just* a technical curiousity. A more standardized issue piece would be a smarter pick, of course, but as a spare to have around, I'd sort of like to have one of those old EM-2s in 7x43.5mm, or a decent copy thereabouts.

[archy]

How about an AR-180 in .243?

That'd be the AR16, of which three were made, and which I saw and handled one of as a young acting corporal small arms instructor in 1966. It resembled a slightly oversized AR180, but with a beautiful burl walnut buttstock.

[SevenDaysInMay]

I had a neighbor 32 y.a. who was a combat vet of the Korean UN's Police Action. Once his unit was nearly overun by Chinese. He saw dead with round nose.30 carbine bullets stuck in their winter uniforms (bodies used as berms), but gathered that these were 'pass throughs' from a previous hit. Mob charges were common in his rocky ground held. He saw .30-06 hits typically knocking one or more in-line down, many to stay, but carbine hits would not reliably kick even small Chinese off their feet.

His bayonet was his ammo saver policing his position.

IMO, we should all have bayonets with if not on our Homeland Security arms.

His story not only made me want/need a .308 or .30-06 (to begin with), but it made sense to me. For that logical reason, I've been an advocate of big bore handguns ever since, .40+.

I've toyed with the notion of a .243x39, .257x39, or .264x39 Ruger #1 as a kid's training rifle, especially since Ruger now has a .311x39 out. Almost no recoil with 80-120 gr., and with Barnes, it should make for a good 300-600 yard training arm and a quiet 1/8 mile deer rifle. Any experienced out there?

6x45 wildcat has its limitations, but is better than 62 gr. 5.62x45 in most cases, unless 80 gr. can be used in very accurate rifles.

Our Terror War will go global and here. Equip and train your household, friends.

We need to be a literate, skilled, and well armed citizenry to defend our ratified Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic - and protect our children's children's future.

[Long Cut]

There are currently rumblings afoot that Armalite might explore that rifle again, if AR-180b sales and demand indicate that it would be profitable. The action seems easier to adapt to a more powerful cartridge than even the AR-15's.

[archy]

There are currently rumblings afoot that Armalite might explore that rifle again, if AR-180b sales and demand indicate that it would be profitable. The action seems easier to adapt to a more powerful cartridge than even the AR-15's.

Indeed there are. And Armalite is very good about listening to suggestions.

[Lazamataz]

Seeing an AR with an AK "banana clip" mag makes my nipples hard.

[Squantos]

When they first came out I purchased a Reed Knight SR25. Awesome, reliable rig. A bit of coin for a poor man like me but hey the kids can eat every other day .......:o)

www.sawlesales.com

Stay Safe !

[Squantos]

I want that rifle.....but Reed says he ain't making em for the commercial market. I cryed , sniveled, whined and barked but no joy ! You find one for sale ....call me !

Stay Safe !

[Long Cut]

Hey, man, this is the thread I told you about...pings like this make it easier to find stuff like this around here.

Hey, all you gunfolk, thumperusn just signed on yesterday, and he and I serve in the same squadron, actually, we're crewmates. He's also an old student of mine.

He likes guns, but unfortunately his wife won't let him buy any!

(Thump, just bustin' on ya, Dude!)

[Long Cut]

Hey, that IS an interesting development. I hope they do like that one guy suggested, and use FN-FAL mags for it. They're far, far less expensive than either AR-10 or M1A mags, which works well with a "low-cost" battle rifle concept.

I really hope they pursue it.

[Clean_Sweep]

"some type of post detonation acceleration of the bullet"

This feature in a bullet would violate the Geneva Convention.