[biblewonk]

Would you like for me to prove to that there is a God and that the bible is His Word? You seem to be overly well versed in the terminology of debate. Logic and reason will not prove the bible to you. My perspective is as one who believes the bible and this is not based on logic nor can it be proven though reason.

However, my position remains the same. Other than the fact that God has defined sodomy as a sin, there is no other reason for being opposed to or disliking sodomites except for reasons of prejudice and hypocracy. Nearly every natural claim against sodomy can also be made against normal sex. Even when it comes to procreation, the average person has sex 7000 times in his/her life and only produces 2 children. Therefore 99.97 percent of sex turns out to only have been recreational.

[Lucky Dog]

Please note: I have not asserted (in fact, I have conceded) your position that the Bible condemns homosexual behavior in clear, consistent, and repetitive terms. Furthermore, I have not questioned the authority of the Scriptures in any way nor have I challenged your belief in these Sacred Texts. As a matter of record, I, personally, accept the Bible in its entirety and its message as the inerrant Word of God.

What I have challenged is your largely unsupported and illogical assertion(s) that the Bible is the only sound argument against homosexual behavior. Let me respond to each of your statements and ask you to consider my arguments dispassionately and logically with an aim to being convinced if the facts are indisputable and the logic is irrefutable and you cannot offer an equally well supported and logical counter argument.

“Would you like for me to prove to that there is a God and that the bible is His Word?”

Answer: No. Belief in God and that the Bible is His Word are articles of faith. One accepts or rejects the existence of God and His Word on the basis of spiritual revelation. However, accepting this faith does not exclude the use of facts, logic or debate following this acceptance. There is an entire discipline known as Christian apologetics taught in every major seminary of every denomination. This discipline is devoted to the very endeavor of using facts, logic and debate to further the promulgation of God’s Word and His Cause.

“You seem to be overly well versed in the terminology of debate.”

Answer: I freely confess to being a student of Christian apologetics. Furthermore, I have been a debate coach and college professor in my past. Therefore, by virtue of training and experience, I am “well versed in the terminology of debate.” However, I do not concede that I am “overly” versed in this discipline, as it is impossible to be such, just as it is impossible to be “overly” healthy. Allow me to cite a passage for your consideration concerning this topic: Acts 18:27-28 27 When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28 For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. NIV Consider that hearts and minds can be, and are, changed through skilled and vigorous debate.

“Logic and reason will not prove the bible to you.”

Answer: You are correct in that logic and reason will not “prove” that the Bible is God’s Word. However, you are incorrect that logic and reason cannot be applied to the Bible. Such application has been the case throughout the Bible’s history. Jewish scholars have produced numerous texts on the logic and reasoning of the Old Testament such as the Talmud and others. Similarly, Christian authorities have applied logic and reason as well, beginning with Saint Paul and extending through Saint Augustine, Saint Jerome, and many others too numerous to name. The application of logic and reason to the Bible have shown it to be a beautifully coherent and sound basis for life and faith for anyone, including the questioning intellectual scholar and philosopher

“My perspective is as one who believes the bible and this is not based on logic nor can it be proven though reason”

Answer: I also believe the Bible and my faith is enhanced and strengthened through applying logic and reason to it. As an item of interest consider that even God has called on us to reason: Isaiah 1:18 18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD….” NIV

“However, my position remains the same. Other than the fact that God has defined sodomy as a sin, there is no other reason for being opposed to or disliking sodomites except for reasons of prejudice and hypocrisy.”

prej·u·dice n.
1.
a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.
2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
(As an item of note: being opposed to, or disliking, homosexual behavior is not the same as “disliking sodomites.” There is very well known phrase, “love the sinner but hate the sin” that applies in this case.)

Your implication that beyond Biblical guidance, only prejudice or hypocrisy can be reasons for opposing homosexual behavior is seriously flawed both in terms of logic and facts. Prejudice means that a decision or action has been arrived at without examining the facts of a particular situation. It should be obvious to you if you have read this thread that most of the facts have been put forward in the discussion and posts by various parties. If one has examined the facts and formed a conclusion by applying rigorous logic to these facts, the charge of prejudice is completely unfounded. In fact the charge of prejudice, itself, without examining the arguments against which it is made with their supporting premises and logic is a form of prejudice on the part the one making the charge. Perhaps, you have heard the phrase, “Don’t confuse me with facts, I’ve already made up my mind?”

The definition hypocrisy has been put forward in previous response. Succinctly, it means being insincere about, or less than, what you say you are. As you have offered no rationale for this charge, I cannot understand what you base this assertion on. Are you somehow trying to imply that because I oppose homosexual behavior on grounds in addition to Biblical ones, that I am insincere or less than what I say I am?

“Nearly every natural claim against sodomy can also be made against normal sex.”

Answer: Not true. You have cited no example nor made any logical connections, therefore, you have another “gratuitous assertion.” Like the others you have made, this one is merely your opinion unless you care to put forward some facts and logic. By the way, even if a single irrefutable claim against sodomy exists that cannot be made against “normal sex,” your argument is logically invalid.

“Even when it comes to procreation, the average person has sex 7000 times in his/her life and only produces 2 children. Therefore 99.97 percent of sex turns out to only have been recreational.”

Answer: You have given no source for your assertion. (My wife of 32 years and I are seriously behind. I may have to abandon this discussion and go try to catch up). However, even it is accepted as true, how is it in any way a logical counter to any argument against homosexual behavior that has been put forward to date?