Gay Episcopalian bishop predicts other churches will welcome gays

Agence France-Presse. | 8/06/03

[RussianConservative]

Highly doubt it...America has Orthodox, Orthodox is most conservative. Last I read there are 7 million Orthodox America.

[mict42]

Why don't we all become gay and end the human race in one generation of church sanctioned sodomy? What a wonderful epitaph to our specie. What the hell are you going to tell St. Peter at the Pearly Gates?

[SoothingDave]

As a faithful prtestant I have to say I am deeply disappointed with the Catholic church and I now understand when people say how evil will come out of the church.

Why are you disappointed with the Catholic Church?

SD

[Conservative4Ever]

I guess the Anglican church is changing in the Church of Do Whatever the H*ll You Want. I am shocked at the results.

Red

[valeris]

Genesis 2:24-25 shows us this when referring to the first husband and wife, Adam and Eve. It reads, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." Jesus said in John 14:15, 23-24, "If ye love me, keep my commandments. If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings."
Leviticus 18:22 reads, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." That is stated as plainly and clearly as you can get. The Bible commands us that we are not to have intercourse with people of our same sex. It is not only a sexual sin, but it is an abomination.

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

I wouldn't be too smug about what Southern Baptist's will or will not accept - Jimmy Carter claims to be one and apparently has Church support - even when he gives his support to the likes of Bill Clinton. And too many Southern Baptists are/were supporters of Billy Boy at the polls.

[RussianConservative]

I've got trusting eyes...so people tell me...who knows? I hear all kind of things...don't try to repeat, er gossip, though minus names I will use "neutral" facts. :0) We Russians, drinking no big deal. Church allows drinking, just not to excess.

[PhiKapMom]

Looks like some Bishops did walk out according to the following AP article that just arrived in my email from Update News:

Faction Denounces Election of Gay Bishop

By RACHEL ZOLL
.c The Associated Press

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) - A conservative faction of the Episcopal Church denounced the election of the denomination's first openly gay bishop and called on Anglican leaders worldwide to intervene in what it called a ``pastoral emergency.''

Tuesday's confirmation of the Rev. V. Gene Robinson by the Episcopal General Convention - delayed after last-minute misconduct allegations - risked a possible exodus of conservatives, who said their grief over the decision was ``too deep for words.''

Robinson was cleared of the misconduct allegations just before Tuesday's vote.

With his daughter, Ella, and his partner of 13 years, Mark Andrew, watching nearby, Robinson expressed his love for the church.

``God has once again brought an Easter out of Good Friday,'' he said.

In an interview Wednesday, Robinson said he hoped his critics would not leave the church, though he disagrees with their view that gay sex violates Scripture.

``I think they're wrong about this,'' he said. ``I think they'll come to know that they are wrong, in this life or the next one.''

But Robinson said he values diversity within Anglicanism and hoped his critics will, too.

Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold, head of the church, said the bishops voted 62-45 to confirm Robinson's election. Two bishops abstained, but their ballots under church rules were counted as ``no'' votes.

Immediately after results were announced, more than a dozen conservative bishops walked to the podium of the House of Bishops, surrounding Pittsburgh Bishop Robert Duncan, who read a statement saying he and the others felt ``grief too deep for words.''

Some convention delegates who opposed Robinson left the meeting in tears.

``This body willfully confirming the election of a person sexually active outside of holy matrimony has departed from the historic faith and order of the Church of Jesus Christ,'' Duncan said. ``This body has divided itself from millions of Anglican Christians around the world.''

The Episcopal Church, with 2.3 million members, is the U.S. branch of the 77 million-member global Anglican Communion. American conservatives and like-minded overseas bishops have said confirming Robinson would make them consider breaking away from the denomination.

The American Anglican Council, which represents conservative Episcopalians, planned a meeting in Plano, Texas, in October to decide their next move.

Duncan called on the bishops of the Anglican Communion and Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, head of the communion, to intervene in ``the pastoral emergency that has overtaken us.''

``May God have mercy on his church,'' Duncan said. Eighteen other bishops signed his statement.

The leader of the Anglican Church of West Malaysia, Bishop Lim Cheng Ean, said Asia's bishops might consider cutting their ties with the U.S. church because of Robinson's appointment. But the head of Australia's Anglican Church, Primate Peter Carnley, considered a liberal, said he didn't think it would be ``a communion-breaking issue.''

Williams issued a statement saying it was too soon to gauge the impact and appealing to opponents not to react rashly.

``It is my hope that the church in America and the rest of the Anglican Communion will have the opportunity to consider this development before significant and irrevocable decisions are made in response,'' he said.

Gay rights advocates, meanwhile, claimed Robinson's confirmation as a major victory. The Rev. Michael Hopkins, president of Episcopal gay advocacy group Integrity, said he was ``grateful to God'' for the vote.

Robinson said he attended a gathering of gay Episcopalians Tuesday night where some were in tears, saying their gay children had called to tell them they would now return to the church.

``I was blown away for what this meant to those who were gathered there,'' Robinson said.

Later this week, the Episcopal convention is expected to consider a measure on drafting a same-sex blessing ceremony.

The church has been debating the role of gays for decades. In 1998, a worldwide meeting of Anglican leaders approved a resolution calling gay sex ``incompatible with Scripture,'' but the denomination has no official rules - either for or against - ordaining gays.

Some Episcopal parishes already allow homosexual clergy to serve and gays who did not reveal their sexual orientation have served as bishops. But Robinson is the first clergyman in the Anglican Communion to live openly as a gay man before he was elected.

Robinson, a 56-year-old divorced father of two, will be consecrated in the New Hampshire Diocese in November.

Allegations that surfaced at the last minute nearly derailed Robinson's vote.

David Lewis of Manchester, Vt., e-mailed several bishops, saying Robinson had inappropriately touched him. Bishop Gordon Scruton, who investigated the claim, said Robinson briefly put his hand on the man's back and arm while engaged in a conversation at a church meeting in public view.

Scruton said Lewis told him he did not want to file a formal complaint. Robinson, who helped write church procedures for dealing with such allegations, has apologized if he made Lewis feel uncomfortable.

The other concern was an indirect link from the Web site of Outright, a secular outreach program for gay and bisexual youth, to pornography. Robinson helped found the Concord, N.H., chapter of the group, but Scruton said the clergyman ended his association with the organization in 1998 and ``was not aware that the organization has a Web site until this convention.''

Scruton determined Tuesday that there was no need for a full-blown inquiry, allowing the vote on Robinson to proceed.

If conservatives do decide to break away, it was unclear what that would mean for the Episcopal Church. Some parishes could split from their dioceses and refuse to recognize clergy who support homosexuality, but stop short of a complete separation.

A full schism would trigger, among other things, bitter fights over parish assets and undercut the global influence of the U.S. church.

Bishops from Africa, Asia and Latin America, representing more than a third of Anglican Communion members worldwide, severed relations this year with a diocese that authorizes same-sex blessings - the Diocese of New Westminster, based in Vancouver, British Columbia.

On the Net:

http://www.episcopalchurch.org



08/06/03 15:44 EDT

[PhiKapMom]

Let's put it this way -- the Texas and Oklahoma Southern Baptist Church's will not accept gay ministers or they will split from the Convention.

A lot Baptist do not belong to the Southern Baptist Convention either -- right here in my area because they are even more conservative.

Others across the Country are not Southern Baptists.

What's your problem? I made a statement that I did not believe the Convention would accept gay ministers and I still believe that! That isn't being smug, that is stating a fact.

[valeris]

Because of all the homosexual scandals and the inefficient way in which these are being handled. In my opinion all those priests who sexually abused children should no longer be holding any position of leadership.
For many years, Catholic priests have gotten away with these kind of things. They should set a good precedent so, that these things don't happen again, or they should allow priest to marry women, rather than allow them to rape the innocent children of the world. Instead of sanctifying themselves in church, priests are rather condeming themselves.

[Paladin2b]

Anybody have some tips for making lemonade out of this lemon? It occurs to this non-Epicopalian that the coming schism (although I personally doubt this will happen -- see my post # 35 for why I think it won't) might mean there will be some great church real estate available at fire sale prices: liberal bishops not having enough money to maintain church buildings whose congregations have fled. Is there a nationwide directory of church (Episcopal and otherwise) properties that are up for sale?

[The Grammarian]

Yeah, I've been to a PCA church here in town, and they're pretty dang conservative. Heck, PCA/PCUSA churches are typically too "liberal" to support Calvinism, but this one does. Now if only I were a Calvinist....

[PhiKapMom]

After reading the article from AP, there may be some churches leave and would bet donations will drop way off. There might be some firesale of property, etc. after this.

[SoothingDave]

For many years, Catholic priests have gotten away with these kind of things.

True in the past, but no longer.

They should set a good precedent so, that these things don't happen again, or they should allow priest to marry women, rather than allow them to rape the innocent children of the world.

Marriage is not a cure or a preventive for either homosexuality or for those who prey on children. It's a non sequitur.

I guess I am mostly puzzled as to why you would bring up your displeasure with the Catholic Church on a thread about the Anglican's capitulating. Even the worst things that the Catholic Church may have done was about hiding the fact that dark sins were being committed. This is vastly different from calling sin good.

SD

[Paladin2b]

I meant to say my post #31 as to why the Episcopals won't schism (I love using that as a verb):

"the talk of schism is just that...TALK. The gays will call the "conservatives'" bluff. Yes, the African bishops will say that they regret it all, but in the end they'll keep up a pretence of some unity, because they aren't willing to refuse $$$ from their American co-religionists.

And the American "conservative" Episcopalians? Yes, they'll huff and they'll puff and they'll threaten to leave, but in the end, they'll stay, to the detriment to their souls. If they stayed through the many silly hijinks of the past couple decades of the ECUSA, they suck this up too. After all, leaving might mean a few years of liturgies in strip mall storefront chapels, altars made from folding tables, no organs, etc. And in the end that's what will turn out to be more important to them. "Well, YES, I think it's shameful that "Bishop" Robinson is one of our shepards, but I can't leave this cute little church that I've been going to for 20 years...I love the music here."

Where your heart is, there also is your treasure."

[JonathansMommie]

Yes i know this. And i also know you can't make everyone Believe in the word of god.And my mother in law is one of them she has her own beliefs and to heck with everyone else.

[PhiKapMom]

Was sitting here thinking that all of this may eventually lead to a new Church body in the United States made up of Conservatives sick and tired of the liberal track some Church's are taking today.

[Aliska]

Sometimes I wish the church in east and west would not have allowed hard liquor, but I know that wouldn't fly with the Russians or the Irish and some others. I guess there was "strong drink" in biblical times but it was pretty frowned upon.

Maybe you should have been a priest. Better to tell someone like that your deep dark secrets. I suppose some have these troubing secrets and always have.

The thought occurs to me that if people found other pursuits like hobbies, they would't get obsessed with kinky stuff.

My kinkiest thought of late was a pair of discarded panties I found at a roadside park the other day. I wondered who owned the panties and why they ended up where they did. I photographed them and am it for the day I get my panties in a wad over something. Probably won't post it here though.

That's enough of that stuff. They are talking about the flap on local talk radio. Local host says if his church pulled something like that, he would be looking for another one.

[MortMan]

Actually, where is part of woman and woman. I know of part of man and man but not of women.

This can be found in the first chapter of Romans.

[RussianConservative]

Yes, American Anglican gone off deep end. Is there not church in America for homosexuals who rewrote Bible...Metropolitan Church or some such? Then they wonder why Russia band for 15 years all these groups.

Hmm, hard liquer....well you know what vodka means in old Slavonic? It means good water...because no man die of dysentery drinking vodka...so you add it to water and walla purified water.