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White-collar jobs may not be back soon
Dallas Morning News via Boston Globe ^ | August 3, 2003 | Angela Shah

Posted on 08/03/2003 2:37:02 AM PDT by sarcasm

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:10:34 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

But those very same forces are now serving to prolong workers' misery. More college-educated executives and managers have been cut from payrolls this last recession, compared with previous ones. And it's taking them longer to find new work.

More worrisome to them, however, is that the jobs may never come back.


(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: freetrade; jobmarket
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To: DugwayDuke
That was 94.


This is different.
41 posted on 08/03/2003 6:22:01 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: Fishrrman
I totally agree. However, when was the last time you heard anyone in the established education world or even anyone, period, advocate not going into college for an education.
42 posted on 08/03/2003 6:24:10 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: DugwayDuke
You can. It's called a DRIP (Dividend Reinvestment Program). Most of the large companies offer such programs.

Do you have to be an employee of the company to do this? And, if it's dividend re-investment, don't you have to own the stock in the first place?

I don't have credit card debt. Isn't all that profit from banks and CC companies on paper? Where are the "real" assets for these companies? Isn't that what caused the debacle of the 1999? No real assets. When paper gets pushed around too much it becomes worthless.

I don't think it can be stopped. Are we not now encouraged by all to "spend" our way out of trouble? How can we do that when we have nothing to spend?

43 posted on 08/03/2003 6:29:53 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: sarcasm
''Economies like India have MBAs from great universities,'' he added. ''They are English-speaking and fully loaded cost $8,000 to $12,000 a year.''

I'm wondering how they pay for an $80,000+ education on $12K a year...

44 posted on 08/03/2003 6:32:06 AM PDT by LouD (Genuine GOP Vigilante - Accept no substitutes!)
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To: independentmind
>>Improvements in technology mean that software code or tax forms can be written or processed in India or elsewhere -- at a substantial savings.

>I can't even begin to describe what a phenomenally bad idea the outsourcing of tax return preparation to India is.

Earnst and Yound is doing this. There is one question EY has forgotten to ask. If their business decisions are so routine that they can pack it up and ship it to India, why hire E&Y at all? Why not just use a computer program?

45 posted on 08/03/2003 6:32:40 AM PDT by Dialup Llama
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To: pabianice
Only through protectionist legislation, This has been tried before. It always leads to even worse long-term problems.

Yes, Founding Fathers made this mistake. America suffered as a result of tariffs until Clinton and Bush have fixed it.

46 posted on 08/03/2003 6:39:55 AM PDT by A. Pole
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To: Fishrrman
That is the direction I am leaning towards, not just Plumbing, but more so to electrician.

I am starting school AGAIN, this time to add an AS in EE to my resume instead of anothe CAD software that is only going to be useless in this economy!...(sigh)
47 posted on 08/03/2003 6:41:37 AM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Dialup Llama
If I figure something out, it remains proprietary and people will have to pay to learn about it.

Amen! My primary defense against this onslaught of unemployment is to develop my own application on my own time, which I'm almost ready to begin selling.

48 posted on 08/03/2003 6:41:47 AM PDT by Marauder
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To: Dialup Llama
I have another question. There have been many suggestions that public companies be required to release annual tax returns as well as financial statements. Differences in reporting certain items for tax and financial statement purposes can often indicate book-cooking. They also allow the public to ascertain exactly how "creative" a company's tax reduction efforts are.

One of the main arguments against requiring public corporations to release tax returns has been that they contain highly sensitive information that a competitor might use to its advantage.

So what are the Big Four doing to ensure the confidentiality of this highly sensitive information? Are they so sure that an Indian raised in a culture very different from our own will share our concept of what constitutes ethical behavior? I've worked with a few people from that area of the world, and I have my doubts about this.

49 posted on 08/03/2003 6:46:08 AM PDT by independentmind
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To: raybbr
Why can't you buy stocks directly from a company? Why do you have to go through the stock market?

You can from most companies once you are a share holder. Then you can purchase shares directly from the company treasurer at no commission. You can also have your dividends reinvested into new shares at no cost.

Why do banks pay 1.5% for money and we are paying 12-26% for the money we borrow? Don't tell me there isn't a mass gouging of the American people by the money industry.

If you are paying those rates (12-26%) its because you are too lazy to move to another credit card or your credit history sucks. These days you can get all sorts of low interest rate deals for accepting a new credit card. After six months, if they dont continue to give you a good rate, you transfer your balance to another bank offering a low rate on transfers. Additionally, many credit card issuers are offering permanent rates of under 8%.

50 posted on 08/03/2003 6:46:42 AM PDT by Dave S
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To: sarcasm
The American consumer cannot be much of a consumer if unemployed. Lower prices of goods cannot be low enough if you are penniless.

To all who say American workers are not good enough workers to compete, I tell you, "It's a lie. Get out of my wonderful country!"

Take your anti-American sentiment to the countries you believe hold the keys to your happiness and prosperity. Don't come back.

51 posted on 08/03/2003 6:48:30 AM PDT by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: sarcasm
Filling in for Willie G?
52 posted on 08/03/2003 6:48:34 AM PDT by Consort
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To: Doohickey
Well, there you have it. The offshoring industry's new mantra to spin their selling-out of Americans. Americans are too stupid to hold technical jobs.

Yeah... I remember that in the late 70's and early 80's, it was the slow, fat, overpaid, underworking union blokes that were the problem. Then, laid off people were encouraged to become "knowledge workers." That must explain why the IT people are overpaid and underskilled... they're all the old union people!

53 posted on 08/03/2003 7:00:13 AM PDT by kezekiel
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To: sarcasm
''a mouse click away, more skilled and at one-fifth of the cost,''

Right on two counts out of three. But I've seen code written by the Ten Little Indians that was so garbled and inefficient it had to be completely reworked, at considerable expense to the company.

It reminds me of a guy who used to favor going to huge buffets for lunch. We'd always complain that the food was crap. "Sure," he agreed, "but it's CHEAP."

54 posted on 08/03/2003 7:03:39 AM PDT by IronJack
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To: sarcasm
There is something going on here that the author clearly doesn't get and, I'm afraid, most posters don't either.

In the 1800s, a "managerial hierarchy" developed in corporations in which professional managers (i.e., "white collar" workers) added value by being transmitters of information. This was at a time when large numbers of workers were either illiterate or uneducated, and needed to have critical information about the production processes digested, then parceled out to them depending on their task.

MANAGERS WERE CONDUITS OF INFORMATION. That was their primary job in "management."

But with the advent of computers, and with a super-highly educated workforce (i.e., virtually everyone with a high school degree and 25% of the workforce college educated), these managers no longer added value when a "line" employee could obtain critical information by going on his company's computer and getting it himself, usually hours or days before he got a response from his boss.

Most companies could not explain this phenomenon. They knew it was occuring, and they knew managers were no longer "profitable," but could not specifically say why. In the 1990s, we saw the first big wave of these managerial layoffs. There will be more, because managers (not all, but many) HAVE BECOME BOTTLENECKS TO INFORMATION TRANSMISSION WITHIN A CORPORATION.

Now, as for the Indian x-ray readers, there is likely some of that going on, but I can tell you that the trend is the other direction---hiring lower cost DOMESTIC workers (i.e., "nurse practitioners" and "lab techs") to do in-house work in doctors' offices instead of adding expensive doctors. These are good paying jobs that don't carry the risk of malpractice nor the burden of years' of medical college debt.

55 posted on 08/03/2003 7:13:40 AM PDT by LS
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To: neutrino
If it is an issue, it is one that apparently few here understand. It has little to do with foreign competition, and everything to do with the structure of somewhat obsolete corporations.
56 posted on 08/03/2003 7:14:22 AM PDT by LS
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To: BushCountry
Soon, the world will not be able to meet the demand for I/T professionals and require American solutions.

I don't think you realize how fast the changes are in IT professions. While American programmers are standing in unemployment lines, or cleaning carpets to try to stay afloat, it will be the Indian programmers keeping up with new innovations. Americans are too busy looking for work and why take classes when there are no jobs for Americans? Our government has chosen for us to drop out of the IT industry. Just as it has chosen for us to drop out of machine tooling and the garment industry.

57 posted on 08/03/2003 7:15:07 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: BushCountry
You are so right. Consider evidence from KOREA, where the change from dial-up to broadband created a TENFOLD increase in computer-related jobs, products, and productivity.

We haven't scratched the surface of the tech revolution yet--indeed, some of the layoffs we're seeing are the direct result of both companies and employees not seeing the value that they once added to a product, but no longer add.

It is all about adding value. If you don't add it, you have no reason to complain about losing/not having a job. YOU are responsible for your job, even if someone "hires" you, because it is only your productivity and value to the company that gives you a job in the first place.

58 posted on 08/03/2003 7:17:11 AM PDT by LS
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To: DugwayDuke
The problem is, I'm a stock HOLDER, so I get the money too. And so does my retired mother. And so do all the employees at my school. So it is not accurate to blame "stockbrokers" and "bankers" when ANY American who holds securities or pension funds with securities benefits from the efficiencies.
59 posted on 08/03/2003 7:18:18 AM PDT by LS
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To: DugwayDuke
Oh, yes, the "greedy capitalists". You do realize this sounds rather "Marxist"?

You need to realize that in China, that government actively promotes business ---- when a business starts up, the government provides the building, the electricity but compare that to here where the government does everything it can to hamper business. An American small businessman gets no support at all from the government ----quite the opposite. It's a little hard to compete with businesses which have their government behind them and encouraging them ---even owning them.

60 posted on 08/03/2003 7:20:18 AM PDT by FITZ
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