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To: Sabertooth
I hope, however, that in the future you might contemplate your reaction here a bit, and reconsider some of the rhetorical excess.

In reference to my rhetorical excess, that's just how I like to write.

I speak that way, too.

I'm passionate. I used to be irascible. I've been reborn but I'm still growing. (:

I have some concerns about it you don't share.

Your anxiety is unsubstantiated. Your continuously posted concerns appear to me to be either irrational weakness or purposeful subterfuge. I love and respect you; your behavior on this thread makes no sense to me. Every question you have posed about the language and possible loopholes of this legislation has been invalidated. The answers you have received have not been insubstantial opinion but established fact, direct quotes, verifiable truth: they have made no difference to you.

I have known you to be very actively pro-life. This is the first piece of pro-life legislation we have seen brought through the US Congress that will actually be signed by the President. It outlaws partial birth abortion. With no basis in logic whatsoever you are actively against it.

That was the cause of my reaction.

792 posted on 08/07/2003 12:29:18 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: .30Carbine
With no basis in logic whatsoever you are actively against it.

I can only guess that you've confused someone else's post with mine. I have questions about the legislation, but I've nowhere suggested that I'm against it.

Let me give you my take in a nutshell... I think a slugfest for more strongly-worded PBA legislation would have been preferrable, and winnable. However, given the circumstances we currently have, I'll take the bill as written. I'm simply trying to get a handle on what it actually does. I understand you have a strong opinion on that, and that's fine. You may even be right, but I'm still going to ask more questions and wait and see how things shake out, ok?


793 posted on 08/07/2003 12:37:38 PM PDT by Sabertooth (Dump Davis - Vote McClintock)
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To: .30Carbine
Looks like this bill "fooled" some pretty strong people.

Final Approval Near for Partial-Birth Abortion Ban, As Pro-Abortion Leaders
Raise Alarms and Vow Fight in Court

WASHINGTON (June 6, 2003)-- The day is fast approaching when the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act will be signed into law by President Bush, following overwhelming endorsement of the bill by the U.S. House of Representatives on June 4.

The signing will be the culmination of an eight-year fight by the National Right to Life Committee and other pro-life forces.

The ban, which was twice vetoed by President Bill Clinton, is strongly supported by President Bush.

The New York Times said the latest developments were  "putting the antiabortion movement on the brink of a major victory," while Knight-Ridder Newspapers called it the  "biggest legislative victory in more than a decade" for pro-life forces.

"The House sent the message that human life is valuable and that our law cannot sanction such barbarism," said House Republican Whip Roy Blunt (R-Mo.).

But pro-abortion leaders denounced the legislation as an assault on Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion on demand. They vowed to fight the law in court as soon as President Bush signs it.

Kate Michelman, president of the group that currently calls itself  "NARAL Pro-choice America," said,  "This is a broad, unconstitutional bill which sacrifices women' s health and future fertility on the altar of extreme right-wing ideology."  When the ban is signed into law, "the sleeping giant that is pro-choice America will awaken," she predicted.

Final steps soon

The Senate passed its version of the bill (S.3), sponsored by Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.), on March 13 by a vote of 64-33. (See April NRL News, page 1.)

On June 4, the House took up its version (H.R. 760), sponsored by Congressman Steve Chabot (R-Ohio). The House rejected two gutting amendments, and then passed the ban by 282-139 B a two-to-one margin.

(To see the roll calls, go to the House scorecard at the NRLC website Legislative Action Center)

The Senate attached to its version a non-binding resolution to endorse Roe v. Wade (the Harkin Amendment), and pro-life forces want to see that amendment removed in an upcoming House-Senate conference committee.

After the conference committee produces a final version of the bill, it must be approved by both houses before it is sent to President Bush for his signature.

These final steps in the legislative process could take a number of weeks.

Following the House vote, the White House released a statement in which the President said, "I applaud the House for passing legislation banning partial-birth abortions. Passage of this important legislation is a shared priority that will help build a culture of life in America. I urge Congress to quickly resolve any differences and send me the final bill as soon as possible so that I can sign it into law."

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tx.) commented,  "After eight long years, Congress will finally send the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban to a president willing to sign it. When he does, abortion will still be with us. The debate over the rights of the unborn will continue, and new battles will be fought."

House Debate

During the House debate, opponents of the ban argued that the bill violates two U.S. Supreme Court rulings -- Roe v. Wade, the 1973 ruling that legalized abortion on demand, and Stenberg v. Carhart, a 2000 decision in which five justices held that Roe v. Wade covers even partial-birth abortions.

According to press reports, several pro-abortion groups are planning legal challenges as soon as the bill is signed, including the Planned Parenthood Federation of America and the ACLU.

"Two-thirds of Congress, 70 percent of the public, and four Supreme Court justices say there is no constitutional right to deliver most of a living baby and then puncture her head with scissors," said NRLC Legislative Director Douglas Johnson.  "But five Supreme Court justices have said that the right of abortionists to perform partial-birth abortions is guaranteed by Roe v. Wade. We hope that by the time this ban reaches the Supreme Court, at least five justices will be willing to reject such extremism."

The January 2003 Gallup poll found that 70% favored and 25% opposed  "a law that would make it illegal to perform a specific abortion procedure conducted in the last six months of pregnancy known as 'partial birth abortion,' except in cases necessary to save the life of the mother."

The bill legally defines a partial-birth abortion as any abortion in which the baby is delivered alive until  "in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother," or if the baby is delivered head first,  "the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother," before being killed. The bill would allow the method if it was ever necessary to save a mother's life.

House Rejects Phony Ban

The House overwhelmingly rejected, 133-287, a competing bill ("substitute amendment" ) offered by the chair of the Congressional Pro-Choice Caucus, Rep. Jim Greenwood (R-Pa.), and Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Md.). While promoted as a  "ban" on  "late-term" abortions, Hoyer and Greenwood conceded that their measure would allow abortions even during the final three months of pregnancy for  "mental health."

NRLC' s Johnson commented,  "The Greenwood-Hoyer proposal was a complete sham. This phony ban was offered by pro-abortion leaders in the House to provide political cover for colleagues who wanted to maintain favor with pro-abortion groups by voting against the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, but also hoodwink their constituents by casting a vote that they could later misrepresent as restricting so-called 'late-term' abortions."

Following rejection of the Greenwood-Hoyer phony ban, Rep. Tammy Baldwin (D-Wi.) offered a motion to add an exception to the partial-birth ban for  "health" -- a term which has been defined by the Supreme Court to include even avoiding emotional distress. The Baldwin motion failed 165 to 256.

The tally on final passage of H.R. 760 was 282-139, one vote more than a two-thirds margin (although only a simple majority was necessary). The bill was supported by 220 Republicans and 62 Democrats. It was opposed by five Republicans, 133 Democrats, and one independent.

Source

806 posted on 08/07/2003 2:18:35 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Free evil moderator!!!)
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