Gibson's gaffe. Mel Gibson needs to take a history class.

Jewsweek ^ | 7/31/03 | Regenstein

[DPB101]

Gibson's gaffe. Mel Gibson needs to take a history class. It was the Romans, not the Jews, who were the Christ killers.

The flood of recent articles and publicity on Mel Gibson's forthcoming movie on Jesus' crucifixion have failed to mention the most important point about this controversy: if the movie does tell the truth about the cruelty and brutality of Jesus' crucifixion, it will make it clear that it was the Romans, not the Jews, who are the real "Christ killers".

According to the Christian Bible ( the "New Testament", especially the Gospel of Mark), Jesus, his family, and virtually all of his followers and disciples at the time were Jews. Jesus preached almost exclusively to the Jews ("the multitudes"), who dined and walked with him. It was his popularity with the Jewish people that caused Jesus to be killed by the ruling Roman authorities; and it was Jews who took Jesus off the cross, prepared him for "burial," mourned him, and then got the blame for the crime.

While a small clique of Jewish collaborators in the ruling classes are purported to have urged the Romans on, they had no real political power, all of which was held by the ruling Romans. All accounts make it clear that it was Romans who condemned Jesus to death, tortured him, put a crown of thorns on his head, spat on him, crucified him, even ran him through with a sword, fearing that this popular Jewish reformer with a huge Jewish following was a threat to Roman law and order.

The Romans went on to kill Jesus' closest disciples Peter and Paul, along with countless other Jewish "Christians", and eventually killed or expelled from the region almost all of the Jews, thus setting the stage for 2,000 years of Jewish suffering and persecution, and for the violence and territorial disputes that plague the Holy Land today.

It is unfortunate that Gibson's movie will apparently fail to make it clear who really killed Jesus, and instead will repeat the ancient blood libels that actually contradict the New Testament's account of the murder, and which have been used since that time to stir up hatred for Jesus' own people.

Indeed, the New Testament account of these events could be used to discredit Gibson's movie, which he claims is based on the truthful version of events as set forth in the Christian bible.

[stryker]

"Give us Barrabas!" Any use of governmental power is relying on force rather than the Holy Spirit. When the Jews called for the release of the violent revolutionary rather than the miracle working but peaceful Messiah, they committed the same mistake that the Christian right does. God's plan is delineated in no uncertain terms in the Bible. Go forth and convert the nations. Then let the Holy Spirit do what it will. When you join together with other Christians to take political power you are neglecting your first and only calling--to minister the death and resurrection of our Savior. And in doing so, you stand with the Jews and scream out for the release of Barrabas! You seek to force political change and not spiritual change.

[stands2reason]

I don't know why if some Sadducees are responsible for his death, that somehow the entire Jewish race takes the blame---despite the fact that it was God's plan. Maybe some SOB bigots believe that, but does that mean we have to pretend that those Sadducees weren't involved---because of the bigots, we have to revise history? This is too much.

[mercy]

Well. This is interesting. I wonder if this has any validity? Has Mel failed to show what actually happened?

I understand the 'touchiness' of Jews regarding this subject. I'm married to one and am soon off to Israel for three weeks. However I hope Jews are not asking us to rewrite history for them. Christ accused the Jews of having murdered nearly all the prophets sent to them. He made it pretty clear that all mankind was pretty much guilty of just about all sin. If you haven't actually murdered you have murdered in your mind. Pretty high standards.

I would like to tell this writer that neither the Jews or the Romans killed The Messiah. We all did.

[Rightly Biased]

Sin crucified Christ soWE All did it

But liberals don't want to take the blame for anything

He said "No man has power to take my life but I lay it down myself as an offering" paraphrase John 10:15-18

[Graybeard58]

"I, Petronski, crucified Christ"

...You didn't do it alone Petronski, I was there too. Fortunately for the both of us, He forgave us.

[Lancey Howard]

"It was the Romans, not the Jews, who were the Christ killers."

I distinctly remember that line from an old Saturday Night Live skit, but they said "Italians" instead of "Romans."

[Petronski]

Thanks. ;0)

[Lancey Howard]

Moreover, of course, how are modern Jews accountable for the acts of the Pharisees 1970 years ago?

I thought anno Domini started at Jesus' death?

[Held_to_Ransom]

As an army brat I attended Catechism several places in the US and in Europe (in the 50's and 60's). I was also an adult before I heard (also from Jewish sources) that Christians believed that "Jews" (as in all Jews) were responsible for the death of Christ

That is what many Jews believe about Christians, though at the same time, any reasonably observant people will notice that Jews are not hanging from the lampposts in America.

[JoeSchem]

Why are we talking about Jesus dying, when the central theme of Christianity is Jesus Resurrecting?

Why are we talking about who to blame, when the message of Jesus was one of forgiveness?

Why are we looking for reasons to hate, when Jesus preached love?

Because we're humans, that's why.

[Publius6961]

This is hilarious.
Specifically the preoccpation as to whom "officially" killed Christ.
As a Catholic, it is of academic interest only who the culprit is.

It was a political meneuver in any case.
It's like saying that 19 aliens destroyed the World Trade Center, because we certainly are not about to say that Saudi Arabia did it. Or Iraq; or Afghanistan; or Iran; or Syria; or all of them in concert.
Who cares?

In no event am I going to play the primitive game of assigning blame to modern Jews.

That type of mindless memory is best left to the primitives of today: the muslims.

[King Prout]

you though wrong... sorta.
the current calendar has as point zero the accepted birth of Jesus.
However... that date is hotly debated.
Note: there was no "year zero" ever designated. The day of the first January after Jesus was born is considered "day one, year one, AD". The lack of a year zero annoys a lot of folks, myself included.
Also... there have been several adjustments of the calendar over the milennia to correct for earlier lack of "leap" years.
Also, the Romans -who controlled Judea at the time, and who later formed the heart of christendom- never used "BC" and "AD" but instead dated years from the foundation of the city of Rome (ab urbe condita) - 756 BC, IIRC.
so, nu.
WE consider today to be the 31st day of the tenth month of the 2,003rd year after the birth of Jesus. Jesus was executed at 33 years old, or so I have heard, making the year 34AD. I messed up, actually: I should have stated "1969 years ago"

[ModelBreaker]

No, I meant exactly what I said, which was not difficult to understand. The Bible does not establish what "traditional family values" are and therefore, what the Christian right calls traditional family values are American but not Christian. The families in the Bible are not to be emulated, as they are all dysfunctional.

Your posts are based on an incorrect assumption--to wit, you assume that other than the examples of families in the Bible, the Bible does not speak to 'family values.'

This, of course, is not correct. The Bible is filled with instruction about how to live in a family--much of it quite consistent with what might be called traditional family values. 'Honor thy father and mother' comes to mind. As does the Apostle's determination, related by Paul, that, while Jewish law does not apply to Gentile Christians, Gentile Christians are nevertheless required to keep the sanctity and morality of marriage, which was, of course central in Jewish Law also.

I suspect your exposure to the Bible has been from a non-Christian (or at least a non-Biblical Christian) perspective. Please forgive me if I assume too much.

A central tenet of the Gospel is that men can NEVER live in even close to perfect compliance with God's laws. The history of the families in the Bible proves that over and over and over--hence the many dysfunctional families. Original sin means we are all deeply dysfunctional. But by grace, and faith in Jesus Christ, we are presented to God blameless.

If you are interested in this, I suggest a translation of the Bible called The Message. It's in modern language and easy to read. The Gospel of John, Acts, Corinthians and Romans (not really a lot of reading there) contain rich descriptions of the Gospel. It changed my life.

[VOA]

Regenstein's gaffe:

The population mass of Jerusalem (wiped up by their corrupt leaders) chose Jesus
for execution, thus letting a criminal named Barabbas (sp?) go free.
Then the Roman authorities executed Jesus.

Regenstein's gaffe is his desire to say that the "jury" (the street mob) and the
corrupt leaders didn't bear any responsibility.

[VOA]

Ultimately, I believe that if a Christian is confronted with the question "Who Crucified Christ?"
the appropriate answer is "I did."

Same for me.

[VOA]

As an army brat I attended Catechism several places in the US and in Europe (in the 50's
and 60's). I was also an adult before I heard (also from Jewish sources) that
Christians believed that "Jews" (as in all Jews) were responsible for the death of Christ.

I grew up in a small, but modestly affluent "oil town" in flyover country; was a member of
a mainstream Church of Christ congregation (pretty derned conservative), and graduated from
a university affiliated with that church group.

I can't remember the term "Jews" being used by anyone in my personal sphere in all
those years in a mean-spirited way, except by one grandfather who I suspect
had KKK leanings.
One of my classmates from grade 1 to 6 and in many Jr. and Sr. high classes was
Jewish...I can't recall ANYONE ever making an anti-semitic remark to him in
my presence, or having acquaintances say anything like that to me in private conversation.

Not to say it didn't happen out of ear-shot...but this was in the sort of environment
that Hollyweird would paint as the American version of Munich/Nuremburg, when it comes to
bashing Jews.

[Varda]

"any reasonably observant people will notice that Jews are not hanging from the lampposts in America."

Hollywood has certainly not noticed that Americans are not Germans. I've really come to suspect what really bothers some about Mel Gibson's flick is the title. When I first started hearing that medieval Passion plays incited violence against Jews, my first reaction was to suspect hyperbole. I've since changed my mind just based in the fact that the vast majority of Passion plays originated in Germany. The Germany I knew seemed to have the idea that culture was biological in nature . IOW you are prone to certain behaviors because of your breeding. With a cultural axiom like that it might seem reasonable to blame present people for the actions of ancestors. Being an American, and growing up in my circumstances the concept is foreign. For us it's axiomatic that people are individuals first and never responsible for the actions of others. In that sense the KKK is profoundly anti-American. The American idea is that anyone can become an American, an American is what he believes not who his ancestors were. Being an army brat made this easy to see, about half my friends had mothers born in other countries but all the kids were American. No one I knew in public or private ever made the "Jews killed Jesus so present day Jews are Christ-killers" connection. Our general culture isn't like that.

[Held_to_Ransom]

You must realize that in this country, the population of Jews, meaing folks who identify themselves as Jews, not just folks who are descended from by Jewish rules or not, is decreasing. Certainly Jewish leaders can must be threatened by the possibility of their strength ebbing away in the melting pot of culture, ideas, freedom and liberty. Focusing paranoia is a classic propagandistic method of fighting such a thing, and also a handy justification for a separate society within a society. The KKK was the very same thing in it's way, and it was indeed the antithesis of the vision of the founders.

melt melt.

A quote from a classic son of New England:

"The nobility of England, it is but just to say, stands higher in physical beauty and stength, and in intellectual force, than any other 'peerage' in Europe. But it would long since died out from inanition, had it not maintained itself by very frequent marriages with the yeomanry and peasant classes, and by constant accessions from the commercial men and mechanics of England through the appointment of fresh peers therefrom, with an occaisonal admixture of brewers and Jews. The progeny of a class of this sort exhibits higher mental and physical qualities than are shown in the children of parents who are themselves the product of intermarriages for a series of generations. Of course there are exceptions to this generalization. There may be able children of degenerate sires. But whether such instances are not proof of the rule depnds upon the question, whether, from some earlier intemingling, better blood may not have been taken from the lower class. "

From 'Butler's Book,' by Major General Benjamin Butler, US Army. It is to be remembered that Congressmen Benjamin Butler (the same New Englander) authored the KKK act of 1871 which drove the Reconstruction KKK underground.

[PFKEY]

if the movie does tell the truth about the cruelty and brutality of Jesus' crucifixion, it will make it clear that it was the Romans, not the Jews, who are the real "Christ killers".

Christ is dead?

News to me!

Everyone knows He is alive!

[VOA]

Hollywood has certainly not noticed that Americans are not Germans.

Our Germans are better than their Germans

I always just love that line of dialogue put in the mouth of Werner von Braun
in "The Right Stuff".
And it was about what my younger brother said after touring Europe...partly for
pleasure, and also to see if which part of our mixed Welsh-German-British-Mutt
background we took after.
He got home and said "I just had to hear the jokes. We may be 1/4-1/2 Germanic,
but all our brain and heart are from the British Isles!"