Why FREE TRADE was never the answer.

self | 7/28/03 | RaceBannon

[dogbyte12]

Ok. What is the answer to slave labor? It is a seperate issue than the Indian educated professionals taking more advanced jobs.

[FITZ]

A nation of telemarketers does not an economic giant make.

Forget being a telemarketer too ---they're being laid off in very high numbers and those strange accents you now hear on your telephone are telemarketers calling you from India which is why you can't understand much of what they're saying.

[Cacophonous]

Aw man, I was waiting for a particular loudmouth to claim Adam Smith as the theoretical hero of free traders before I laid this on him. Oh well. Nicely done.

[RaceBannon]

That is exactly what I was thinking.

With my shoulder surgery, I wont be able to do manual labor until the end of Sept at the earliest! At least, anything over 20 pounds and above my shulder.

But, I am expecting a settlement, a good size one, and I am not confident that finishing my BS is going to do me any good, even with re-locating.

I was contemplating electrician or civil engineering, sewers or highways, that or a maintenance worker on power lines through their union

But not anything that resembled producing anyting at all, no factory skills at all, I have had it, and I see our nation only being sold out to the lowest bidder.

[Alberta's Child]

It's an important statement, though. Because it goes right to the heart of the issue.

A common sentiment among people here on FR is as follows:

"Oh, for the days when [clothing, electronics, automobiles, appliances, etc. -- you name it] were all made here in the U.S.!!"

There is nothing wrong with that kind of nostalgic longing, but in most cases it is based on the erroneous presumption that the number of these items sold in the U.S. would be the same regardless of whether they were made in Malaysia or in the United States. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Back in the days when all those things were made in the U.S., there weren't very many of them being sold at all (at least the more expensive ones). I'm a Generation X-er, but as a kid I can still remember that monumental point in my family's history when we got a second car for the first time. Some Freepers may even remember when clothing was a major budget item in a typical American family -- now, the stuff is so cheap that a Nike logo on a T-shirt costs ten times as much as the T-shirt on which it is printed!

Just some food for thought . . .

[Cacophonous]

How is the loss of manufacturing capability pragmatic, and how is it good for the US? Why is it pragmatic that electronics components to the guidance systems in cruise missiles and stealth fighters are made in Japan? Why is it a good thing that we import half of our steel from the far east?

Or is your definition of pragmatic tied strictly to your bottom line, and without any sense of obligation to your country? Is the fattening of your wallet, and your ability to buy a cheaper widget, more important that the economic sovereignty of your country?

[Alberta's Child]

Ok. What is the answer to slave labor?

Not to diminish the impact of slave labor on this country's employment situation, but what exactly does "slave labor" do that could otherwise be done here in the U.S.?

I contend that from this country's perspective (aside from the moral question), slave labor has had very little impact on our economy -- if the things that are currently made by slave labor in other parts of the world were made here in the U.S., I am certain that they would be manufactured in plants that are 99% automated anyway.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

Is the fattening of your wallet, and your ability to buy a cheaper widget, more important that the economic sovereignty of your country?

That fattened wallet and that cheaper widget is the highest representation of that economic sovereignty, you dolt.

[maui_hawaii]

In other words, lets talk about China. When we, aka, the US and our companies sells over $100 billion to China, then I will not complain as much about them.

In relation, us to them, it is an unhealthy arrangement.

Why not import from Mexico, or the Phillippines, or anywhere else? Why is everyone hellbent on China? There are many more places to import from that will give us access to their markets and have a MUCH greater potential to become developed and to become consumers rather than merely suppliers.

More thoughts here

[RaceBannon]

That fattened wallet and that cheaper widget is the highest representation of that economic sovereignty, you dolt

It is the fattened wallet of Jeng Zemin that is the problem...You Free traitor!

[x]

Most voters in 1960 remembered the Great Depression. Everyone over 20 years old had lived through at least a bit of it and everyone older than, say, 30 had vivid memories of those years. If they didn't, their parents certainly did.

Everyone over about 40 or 45 had tried to find a job in those hard times. And it's from that group that the policymakers come, not from 20 year olds.

I don't suppose the Kennedys were much affected, but do you really think that Johnson or Nixon, Humphrey or Wallace could have forgotten a decade of their formative years? Even today, those born in the teens, twenties, and thirties haven't forgotten the Depression.

Vietnam is further away in time from us than the Depression was from Kennedy's America. Is it forgotten? Perhaps vivid personal memories have faded, but that doesn't prevent Vietnam -- or WWII or the Great Depression or even the Civil War or Revolution -- from still having a major effect on people's understanding.

If you doubt that people's memories run back a quarter century, start telling people you think Jimmy Carter would make a good President, and see what their reaction is.

[headsonpikes]

Your post has the great virtue of authenticity.

And you're right - the current system is not 'Free Trade' - anything but.

[maui_hawaii]

To me its not an issue of wether or not we can or should make everything completely here in the US. We should trade, but do so wisely. Right now the system sucks.

Historically for every dollar of goods we import from Mexico, we export 75 cents to them. Conversely, for every dollar we import from China we have at best a 15 cents export.

Why is everyone chosing China as a place of destination? Because they are undercutting everyone.

Our trade relations are investments in and of themselves. If who we import from never ends up buying anything from us, the relationship should be cut off and sent to someone who will.

[UnBlinkingEye]

"Wrong," this guy replied, "Because if the work had cost $200,000 to begin with, my client would never have hired us at all. It only made sense for them to upgrade their inventory control system because the cost was $75,000 and not $200,000."

BS. If an upgrade is needed it is done.

In other words, the net effect on the U.S. labor pool was zero. The client wasn't going to have Americans do the work for $75,000 (because the U.S. market rate for the work was $200,000), he wasn't going to have Americans (or Russians, for that matter) do the work for $200,000 either (because the cost would have been prohibitive).

The net effect was jobs lost in America and gained in Russia.

[Cacophonous]

No you Marxist, there is no economic sovereignty for the US if we are dependent on others to make our widgets for us. I will gladly pay more for a domestic product (if I can find one) than for an import.

WHy do you ignore history? Historically, we never were "free traders". Lincoln (founder of the GOP)said, "Thank God I am not a free trader". We fought to protect economic sovereignty. We only became free traders in the '60s under Kennedy (a liberal, lest you need reminding).

[Chancellor Palpatine]

I will gladly pay more for a domestic product (if I can find one) than for an import.

Knock yourself out if it makes you feel good. I'm not inclined to waste money like that.

[eternity]

Thanks for the post. Interesting what free trade is doing to the state of Conn. Before a state once in surplus now in a big fiscal mess. A once proud manufacturing city of Meriden now has 35% of it's population on Medicade! I must say the future looks bleak.

[TheSpottedOwl]

Thank you. I've sat and wondered, while reading Willie Green's articles about businesses shutting down and going overseas, how the heck are we going to earn a living? I know that China uses slave labor, and that other countries use child labor, how do we compete against this? Who is selling us out?

[LibertyAndJusticeForAll]

"In other words, the net effect on the U.S. labor pool was zero."

I remember the thread and the example. This is a small company and an extremely small part of the outsourcing picture.
Consider the large corporations that are outsourcing entire departments. These corporations were very profitable here in the U.S. while their entire workforce was Americans; they just want to increase their profits. The new increase in profits is not being passed on to the consumer or even the stockholder.
The business execs claim they outsource to compete, just like they said there was a shortage of programmers and they needed more H1B and L1 visa workers as recently as last year. They are simply greedy liars. And, by lobbying certain congressmen they have a nice racket going on. The Christian Conservative Phyllis Schlafly has written 3 articles on the subject; she calls it a racket and a scam.
On a related thread regarding illegal workers from Mexico, 3 Republican U.S. Senators have just sponsered a bill to allow illegals here to work. Mexican President Vicente Fox is very pleased with the bill. So are the businessmen who will continue to hire Mexican illegals (only now they will be legal to work here), rather than Americans.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/954159/posts
What we have is a governing body that is ignoring their Constitutional duties. Congress was given the power to regulate commerce and we are supposedly endowed with certain unalienable rights.

[UnBlinkingEye]

An "entitled to a living thread" ping.

Apparently you think people aren't entitled to live. Could you tell me about yourself?