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To: justshutupandtakeit
As you may be aware there are no written proposals by Hamilton proposing such a thing in all the 10s of thousands of pages of his writing...

Hamilton's preferred ideas regarding an empirical central government are and were no secret. Your revisionist attempts to make it seem otherwise cannot erase history. After realising that no such plan would ever, ever succeed at the convention, he supported the proposed federal form of government. Suffice it to say that James Madison addressed the issue of his initial support quite nicely when, remembering Hamilton in 1831, he said the following:

"If his theory of government deviated from the republican standard he had the candor to avow it, and the greater merit of cooperating faithfully in maturing and supporting a system which was not his choice."

It is no secret why the State legislatures were NOT allowed to ratify the Constitution. They would have been had the idea been that the new federal Union was merely a creature of the states.

Abel Upshur put it best:

'The Federal Government is the creature of the States. It is not a party to the Constitution, but the result of it - the creation of that agreement which was made by the States as parties. It is a mere agent, entrusted with limited powers for certain specific objects; which powers and objects are enumerated in the Constitution." - Abel Upshur, 'The Federal Government, Its True Nature and Character' 1868

Of course, the constitutional supremacy of the federal government in conflicts with the states amply proves states were not even equals with the federal government much less superior.

Only in regards to those few and limited powers specifically granted to the Constitution. In ALL other things, the States were to be supreme.

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the Federal Government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State Governments are numerous and indefinite." - James Madison, Federalist Essay # 45

But the plan of the convention aims only at a partial union or consolidation, the State governments would clearly retain all rights of sovereignty which they before had, and which were not, by that act, exclusively delegated to the United States." (emphasis his)- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Essay # 32

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. - Constitution of the United States, 10th Amendment

Yes, that is what I have been saying the authority was "from the People themselves." Glad you admit it.

The "people themselves" that Madison refers to were the people of each STATE, representing each STATE, and acting as STATES. The "People" did not ratify the Constitution, STATES did. As he clearly stated:

"That it will be a federal and not a national act...is obvious from this single consideration, that it is to result neither from the decision of a majority of the people of the union, nor from that of a majority of the states. It must result from the unanimous assent of the several states that are parties to it...were the people regarded in this transaction as forming one nation, the will of the majority of the whole people of the United States would bind the minority, in the same manner as the majority in each state must bind the minority... Neither of these rules has been adopted. Each state, in ratifying the constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a federal, not a national constitution." James Madison, Federalist Essay # 39

However, Hamilton explained what was constitutional and what not in his essay discussing the constitutionality of the National Bank. After that there is little to be said and Marshall properly used it as the basis for major rulings which drove Jefferson nuts.

After the Constitutional union was established, the supra-nationalists with Hamilton at the head, began their dirty work of undoing the intended framework established at the conventions. The reason that Hamilton and some others had supported the Federal Constitution soon became obvious: They knew they could use deceitful legalism to pervert its language and achieve their original nationalist/consolidationist goals. As Jefferson wisely observed in 1820:

"The judiciary of the United States is the subtle corps of sappers and miners constantly working under ground to undermine the foundations of our confederated fabric. They are construing our constitution from a co-ordination of a general and special government to a general and supreme one alone. This will lay all things at their feet..." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Ritchie, December 25, 1820

That is exactly what has happened, and what is happening still. The Constitutional government established by the Founding Fathers, and the one which the States agreed to, was erased by judicial action long, long ago.

811 posted on 09/09/2003 7:22:51 PM PDT by thatdewd
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To: thatdewd
I have never claimed H did not want a stronger central government nor has anyone else that I am aware of. He did and for good reason. This is why he was joined by virtually ALL of the principle founders in that wish. Madison, Washington, Adams, Jay, Franklin, even Jefferson (initially) all recognized that the Articles were incompetent to govern. Why do you select H for condemnation when his views at the CC were not that different from Madison's.

States did not create the constitution, the American People created both States AND the constitution.

Powers granted to the federal government are immense and were only limited in a small degree by the small amount of sovereignty left the States. What do you think the Anti-federalists were talking about? Since you believe the antis were correct then you have to admit that what happened later was consistent with the constitution.

No, the American People gathered in States ratified the constitution. Congress called for conventions to be held in the States to do so. It could have called for other means such as conventions in districts of states or even conventions by regions but doing it by states was most convenient. Had Congress wanted States to make such a decision it would have just called for legislatures to do it. And the 10th amendment has always been the "bastard stepchild" of the constitution with very little relevence primarily because it is so vague as to be almost meaningless constitutionally.

Certainly those who prefer to act without the sanction of the law condemn those who do. Jefferson was not much of a constitutional scholar particularly when compared to Hamilton and Marshall, the two greatest legal minds in the nation during their time. What Jefferson neglects to add in his whine is that HE appointed Justices who were loyal Jeffersonians only to find them swayed by Marshall's brilliance and that Madison did the same thing (by the time Marshall died ALL the other justices were appointed by Jeffersonians.) They were astounded to find that their ideology was not able to stand against Marshall's legal reasoning. Perhaps his greatest disappointment was that the Court actually worked JUST AS IT HAD BEEN INTENDED TO BY THE CONSTITUTION. LoL.
815 posted on 09/10/2003 9:42:24 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree. Bush must be destroyed.)
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