Posted on 07/20/2003 10:18:03 AM PDT by UnklGene
You know, an adverse possession claim would be very intriguing on an international scale... I'd love to read that opinion (and the jurisdictional disputes)!! Unbfortunately, to spoil my fun, it would probably be held up by Leftists and Globalists as a reason for instituting a world governing body.
Yes, I'm rather sure they would have kept them. As spoils of war, their change in ownership can be justified.
As for "allowed", I'm not really sure who would be the one giving Germany "permission" if they had just conquered the planet. In international relations, "might makes right". The fact that, as the current world leader, America does its best to ensure that principles of justice are follwed (and the rest of the planet gladly and happily accepts... and occasionally takes advantage of... our very wise lead) does NOT mean that this is the only system that has existed or could be accepted. Go back in time, find Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan, and tell them that every item of wealth, stature, food, medical supplies, and strategic resource should be returned. See what they say. Then see if you can convince them otherwise with arguments for principles of justness and fairness. Talk to any citizen about this "injustice", and their likely response will be "Yeah, but what are ya gonna do about it?"
We're very fortunate (spoiled, really) to live in a super-power that is potentially responsive to the complaints of everyone in the world. However, that doesn't mean we should undo every transaction throughout history that someone has a grudge against.
(Interesting counter-point for anyone to address: Why can't Britain claim that their cultural heritage includes the spoils they claimed throughout the planet? Their cultural peak was during this era of Imperialism when "the sun never set on the British Empire". Taking the Stone away would harm the British historical sense of self!!!)
Not without a treaty, they can't. In this recent war, The US went to great lengths not to remove any treasures from Baghdad, and to discipline those who tried. The rightful owners of the Baghdad art and artifacts are the Iraqi people.
Recent US Supreme court decision has ruled that even a shipwrecked vessel, shipwrecked in US waters does not belong to the US, but the vountry of origin. (In this case, Spain.)
There was no war between Britian and Greece when Lord Elgin committed his piracy. This was not war booty. This was sheer vandalism which was acknowledged as such in the original report by the Britsh Government of 1816. In report, the marbles were recognized as stolen property.
Greece simply wants a return of what is rightfully theirs.
Do you have any idea how arrogoant that sounds?
Take a look at my post #132 and see what you think... If the shoe were on the other foot what side would you be on, I wonder?
We've also looked after the Rosetta Stone pretty well
And how relevant is that? Your treatment of the marbles is downright criminal.
This whole 'give it back' idea is political correctness.
English didn't exist when the Rosetta stone was carved. How is "English" heritage perserved by having this artifact? Likewise, when the marbles were being carved, the typical Brit was dressed in the Bear skins and painting his face with blue woad. Just what does that British ancestor has in common with ancestors of the ancient Greeks?
When will the Brits stop hijacking someone else's culture and parade it around as if it was theirs? You don't expect the Greeks to lay claim to the Mary Rose, then why for heaven's sake do you insist in hijacking their culture?
Reading threads like this makes me doubt the belief that one cannot be forced to learn to hate.
I know that if the Rosetta stone had not been rescued by the infidels it would have been used to tether an ass and lost to history forever. The "Egyptians had it for thousands of years and they neither had the will nor the means to use is as the europeans did for the benefit of the whole world.
The Elgin marbles.... being used to produce cement by grinding when they were found, bought and rescued, again for the benefit of the whole world.
It's like apes suddenly discovering speech and demanding part ownership of all coconuts... and also of all Faberge eggs.
I know it is. The Parthenon marbles are part of Greek history, the Rosetta stone part of Egyptian. (It was found in the Nile delta by the French). Yet there are many here on this list that don't want the marbles returned to Greece or the Rosetta stone returned to Egypt. So many people have been stating things like the Greeks don't deserve to have the return of their marbles because the Brits can look after them better.
In my hypotethical scenario, the Declaration of Independence gets stolen in 1812, is acknowledge stolen by 1816 but still not returned. We all know that the marbles were stolen and acknowledged stolen in 1816 and still have not been returned.
Why is it OK for Greece not to have her property back, but it would be OK for us to demand the return of ours?
You seem to imply that because that civilzation is no longer in existence, then its artifacts are fair game. I would disagree. Those that have inherited the land, inherit the artifacts from that land. For example, modern Iraq no more resembles ancient Babylonia than Italy resembles ancient Rome. But Iraqi artifacts belong to the Iraqi people, and not to anyone who wants to steal them. Ancient Roman artifacts, on Italian soil belong to the Italian people. Ancient Roman artifacts on Spanish soil belong to the Spanish, etc.
When asked what to do with the library after the capture of Alexandria, Caliph Umar [advisor to and father-in-law of The Prophet Muhammad] replied: "If the books are in accordance with the book of Allah, we may do without them, for the book of Allah more than suffices. If they are not in accordance, then there is no need to preserve them."
In much the same way, all but a handful of the Mayan Codices and the accumulated written record of Easter Island were consigned to the bonfire of history. Luckily, the West has learned a hard lesson and has copied a great deal of historic writings. The great value of the stone is in the door it opened and not the stone itself. If it is moved to Egypt, in time it would suffer the same fate as the Afghan buddhist statuary and the face of the sphinx.
Let's see, Emma old girl, would you rather the Elgin Marbles were in the British Museum, or in some peasant's garden, semi destroyed and unknow, some Turk's garden, later destroyed by WW I bombs, or perhaps sort of still on the Acropolis, but damaged beyond repair and recognition ? Those are the obvious places they could be.
How were they preserved ? Goodness gracious, if you don't know/understand that, then there's no hope at all, that my explination would help you any. LOL
Actually, they should br thanking the west for having it. Had it been left in egypt, it probably would be sitting around in that village doing nothing of importance to this very day.
I don't think the current Egyptian civilization existed when those artifacts were created either.
You have yet to refute anything I posted. You have attempted to put words in my mouth. You have repeated a prior post, which means NOTHING and is totally off topic to what I said.
The Greeks, from Alexander's army, took over Egypt. They and their descendants had NOTHING to do with the building of the pyramids or the Rosetta Stone. Supposedly, the Kush ruled Egypt at obne time. They and their descendants had NOTHING to do with what we now consider to be " Ancient Egyptian Culture ". The Romans, too, held Egypt in thrall at one time. They and dtheir descendants are the same as those already mentioned. Much of today's Egyptian populace is a mixture of peoples who had NO bearings, whatsoever, on the Rosetta Stone. Then, there are the influx of ARABS.
Yes, dear, history and facts DO matter very much; it's a shame that you don't state any that are relevant.;^)
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