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To: justshutupandtakeit
Taxation is not "stealing" and none of the founders thought so.

Well, let's just say that the Federalists, like Hamilton, Madison, etc. did not think that taxation was theft. But to paint with this broad brush all founding fathers is incorrect as the anti-federalists like Patrick Henry thought unlimited taxation was the route to the destruction of American liberty. I quote:

"...A standing army we shall have, also, to execute the execrable commands of tyranny; and how are you to punish them? Will you order them to be punished? Who shall obey these orders? Will your mace-bearer be a match for a disciplined regiment? In what situation are we to be? The clause before you gives a power of direct taxation, unbounded and unlimited—an exclusive power of legislation, in all cases whatsoever, for ten miles square, and over all places purchased for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, etc. What resistance could be made? The attempt would be madness. You will find all the strength of this country in the hands of your enemies; their garrisons will naturally be the strongest places in the country. Your militia is given up to Congress, also, in another part of this plan; they will therefore act as they think proper; all power will be in their own possession. You can not force them to receive their punishment: of what service would militia be to you, when, most probably, you will not have a single musket in the State? For, as arms are to be provided by Congress, they may or may not furnish them..."

"...Nay, sir, there is another alternative to which I would consent: even that they should strike us out of the Union and take away from us all federal privileges till we comply with federal requisitions; but let it depend upon our own pleasure to pay our money in the most easy manner for our people. Were all the States. more terrible than the mother country, to join against us, I hope Virginia could defend herself; but, sir, the dissolution of the Union is most abhorrent to my mind. The first thing I have at heart is American liberty; the second thing is American union; and I hope the people of Virginia will endeavor to preserve that union. The increasing population of the Southern States is far greater than that of New England; consequently, in a short time, they will be far more numerous than the people of that country. Consider this and you will find this State more particularly interested to support American liberty and not bind our posterity by an improvident relinquishment of our rights. I would give the best security for a punctual compliance with requisitions; but I beseech gentlemen, at all hazards, not to give up this unlimited power of taxation. The honorable gentleman has told us that these powers given to Congress are accompanied by a judiciary which will correct all. On examination you will find this very judiciary oppressively constructed, your jury trial destroyed, and the judges dependent on Congress..."

--Patrick Henry
From a speech made on June 5, 1788, in the Virginia Convention, called to ratify the Constitution of the United States.

As someone once asked, "Are you over-taxed, under-taxed or taxed exactly the right amount?"

If you feel you're over-taxed, then you have the Federalist faction of the Founding Fathers to thank because the Anti-Federalists were dead set against the strong central government with the attendant unlimited taxation the Federalists were trying to construct. As it turned out, Henry's predictions about the gun control and activist judiciary were right on the money. (pardon the pun)

243 posted on 07/14/2003 11:58:28 AM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker; PatrickHenry
Great quotes, thanks for posting those. Got links?


245 posted on 07/14/2003 12:06:17 PM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." --James Madison, 1792

"I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for public charity. It would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded." --Franklin Pierce 1854

"I feel obliged to withhold my approval of the plan to indulge in benevolent and charitable sentiment through the appropriation of public funds. ... I find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution." -- Grover Cleveland 1887

"We will have affordable prescription drugs for our seniors" --George W. Bush 2003

(an interesting progression)

246 posted on 07/14/2003 12:06:53 PM PDT by OWK
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker
Sorry, but your post does not show that Henry or Jefferson or George Mason believed taxation was theft. Or even that federal taxation was theft. Virginia had plenty of taxes before the constitution was in effect. New York's proto-RAT machine did too which was why it was opposed to allowing the federal government to collect tariff revenues that had gone to NY state.

Federalist taxes were tariffs, excise and tax on whiskey. But for the last all were imposed by states prior to the constitution. It is a LIE to claim our taxation today comes from federalist taxation principles.

Henry's hysterical opposition to the Constitution destroyed what could have been a great reputation. He, like Sam Adams, played a positive role at one time in our history but threw it all away to side with the corrupt state machines of their day rather than build a nation. Sad.

If quoting Patick Henry in his dotage is the best you can do, I would say you have nothing to argue with. However, the writings of the antis are funny, if nothing else, but are the screeching of delusionaries, not serious thinking by political geniuses like their opponents.
287 posted on 07/14/2003 2:09:37 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (RATS will use any means to denigrate George Bush's Victory.)
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