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Army, Marines rate weapon success
Stars and Stripes ^ | Sunday, July 13, 2003 | Mark Oliva

Posted on 07/13/2003 2:53:59 PM PDT by demlosers

U.S. forces rolled over the Iraqi military in just weeks.

The plans seemed flawless, and the courage of the soldiers and Marines unflappable.

But with the dust settling — and the adrenaline rush of battle now subsiding — military officials are finding some weapons performed as advertised. Others, however, let troops down when they needed them most.

Army and Marine officials recently released after-action reports compiling what was right and what was wrong about the small arms with which troops squared off against Iraqi forces. Soldiers and Marines rated the rifles and pistols they carried into battle, and not all got perfect scores.

Soldiers and Marines relied on variants of the M-16 rifle. The M-16, in service since the early days of the Vietnam War, was highly criticized then as unreliable, often jamming during firefights. Soldiers who participated in Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan also complained the M-4 variant, a shorter version of the M-16, lacked what they needed in combat.

In Iraq, reviews were mixed.

Most soldiers carried the M-4 into battle in Iraq and “were very satisfied with this weapon,” according a report from the Army’s Special Operations Battle Lab. “It performed well in a demanding environment, especially given the rail system and accompanying sensors and optics.”

Marines carried the older and larger M-16A2 rifles, but a report from the Marine Corps Systems Command Liaison Team stated: “Many Marines commented on desire for the shorter weapon vice the longer M-16s.”

One Marine told the team that the shorter rifle would have been better in confined urban battle. Some also said the smaller rifle would have been easier to handle when climbing in and out of trucks and armored vehicles.

“Several Marines even opted to use the AK-47s that had been captured from Iraqi weapons caches,” the Marine report stated. “Others were trading rifles for pistols to go into buildings to allow for mobility in confined spaces.”

Marine Corps officials announced late last year that infantry forces would soon switch from the M-16A2 to the M-16A4, a heavier-barreled version of the long rifle with a rail system like the M-4. Stocks of the weapons, however, arrived in Kuwait too late to be fielded and sighted for battle. Most stayed in storage, but some weapons were delivered to Marines under a plan to initially field one per squad.

A number of M-16A4 rifles, fitted with a 4X scope, were given to Marine rifleman. The combination, Marines said, allowed them to “identify targets at a distance, under poor conditions, and maintained ability to quickly acquire the target in close-in environment[s].”

But not all soldiers and Marines were enamored with the performance of their rifles. Complaints centered on lack of range and reliability problems.

“The most significant negative comment was reference [to] the M-4’s range,” the Army report stated. “In the desert, there were times where soldiers needed to assault a building that may be 500+ meters distant across open terrain. They did not feel the M-4 provided effective fire at that range.”

Safety was another concern. The M-4’s bolt can ride forward when the selector switch is on safe, allowing the firing pin to strike a bullet’s primer.

“Numerous soldiers showed us bullets in their magazines that had small dents in the primer,” the Army report said.

Reliability complaints also found fault with the oil soldiers and Marines used to clean their weapons. In the dusty, sandstorm-plagued battlefields of Iraq, weapons became clogged with sand, trapped by the heavy oil, called CLP.

Several Washington Post articles recalling the night the 507th Maintenance Company was ambushed recounted moments when soldiers in the convoy, including Pfc. Jessica Lynch, battled their weapons to continue fighting Iraqi irregular forces.

“In the swirling dust, soldiers’ rifles jammed,” one article reported. “Pfc. Patrick Miller, 23, from suburban Wichita, began shoving rounds into his rifle one at a time, firing single shots at enemies swarming all around.”

“We had no working weapons,” Sgt. James Riley told The Washington Post. “We couldn’t even make a bayonet charge — we would have been mowed down.”

The Army’s after-action found more soldiers unhappy with CLP.

“The sand is as fine as talcum powder,” the report stated. “The CLP attracted the sand to the weapon.”

Unlike the soldiers’ reports after Afghanistan, Marines in Iraq said the 5.56 mm round fired from the M-16 “definitely answered the mail” and “as long as shots were in the head or chest, they went down.” The Marine reports said many were initially skeptical of the small rounds’ performance against the heavier 7.62 mm round fired from AK-47s. There were reports of enemy being shot and not going down, but most were referencing non-lethal shots on extremities.

Still, “there were reports of targets receiving shots in the vitals and not going down. These stories could not be described, but are of the rare superhuman occurrences that defy logic and caliber of round.”

The report said Marines asked for a heavier-grained round — up to 77 grains.

The M-16 series of rifles fires a 55-grain bullet, a projectile that weighs slightly more than three-and-a-half grams. Some servicemembers believe a heavier-grained bullet would carry more energy downrange, creating greater knockdown power.

Both soldiers and Marines also noted problems with the M-9 9 mm pistol.

“There was general dissatisfaction with this weapon,” the Army report said. “First and foremost, soldiers do not feel it possesses sufficient stopping power.”

Soldiers asked for a tritium glow-in-the-dark sight for night firing.

But soldiers and Marines alike railed against the poor performance of the M-9 ammunition magazines.

“The springs are extremely weak and the follower does not move forward when rounds are moved,” the Marine report stated. “If the magazine is in the weapon, malfunctions result.”

Soldiers complained that even after they were told to “stretch” the springs and load only 10 rounds instead of the maximum 15, the weapons still performed poorly. Lack of maintenance was determined not to be the cause.

“Multiple cleanings of the magazine each day does not alleviate the problem,” the Marine report stated. “The main problem is the weak/worn springs.”

Still, Marines wanted more pistols to back up their rifles, especially in urban environments, according to the report.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 556; 762; aftermathanalysis; ak47; army; banglist; iraq; iraqifreedom; m16; m16a2; m16a4; m4; m9; marines
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To: tortoise
You may very well be correct. Bad logistically and expensive?? We already have the M14's and the ammo isn't hard to find, but you still might be right. I sure don't know.
61 posted on 07/13/2003 6:10:34 PM PDT by OldEagle (Haven't been wrong since 1947.)
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To: Prodigal Son
Yep, clamp both of them down in a machine rest to take the shooter out of the picture and in all likelyhood they'd shoot the same.

Interesting and somewhat relevant link here: http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

62 posted on 07/13/2003 6:20:34 PM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: tortoise
***If shooting ability for a given cartridge size was a measure of manhood, my 110-lb girlfriend must have a johnson that drags on the ground.***

Why would anyone want to drag a 30-06 Johnson WWII rifle on the ground? Does not it have a shoulder strap?
63 posted on 07/13/2003 6:25:15 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn the best firehose is an AK-47.)
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To: CGTRWK
Yep, clamp both of them down in a machine rest

Ok, that's just what I need in a combat weapon- a big clamp and worktable to clamp it to. I say that playfully, but that's the whole point. These guys are in combat- not a turkey shooting contest. Their weapons have to serve them in a wide variety of situations. YOu can't go clamping your personal weapon down to a tripod every time. One reason the 50 is deadly out to 1800+ meters is because of that tripod and T and E mechanism. But the 50 is a crew served weapon and weighs a ton (figuratively). A tripod for a personal weapon like the M16 makes it useless.

64 posted on 07/13/2003 6:25:44 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: nightdriver
I use something called dri-lube. No problem with sand. I knew 20 years ago not to over lube in a desert or freezing weather.

Today I was at the range shooting a 1903-A3 and a Remington 1917 Enfield. Both in 30-06. No problem on knockdown or long-range power. THe 1903-A3 has the prettiest trigger pull. You pull back until it catches. Any increase in trigger force will cause the gun to fire. It is like this every time. I just wish it had a 1903-A1 rear sight instead of the 1903-A3.

65 posted on 07/13/2003 6:37:43 PM PDT by american_ranger
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To: Prodigal Son
Entirely right, of course. And you've tangentially summed up the problem with the M4 pretty well - combat weapons do have to serve in a wide variety of situations, and the short and handy M4 with its foot and a smidge sight radius is every bit as useless as long range as your M16 on a tripod would be for going house to house.

I remain convinced that short barrel and all, putting a scope on the M4 would go most of the way towards matching the M16 at a distance.

66 posted on 07/13/2003 7:05:42 PM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: Centurion2000
You are shooting .45 Long Colt.That is a revolver round!The standard for .45ColtACP is a 230-grain bullet!!Same caliber,Different delivery system!!!
67 posted on 07/13/2003 7:31:24 PM PDT by bandleader
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To: x1stcav
500+ meters is 7.62 country. Should have broken out the M14's in storage if there are any left.

Sure, but still, an M16-a1 was good enough for us 25 years ago, too, though, the A2 should be good for 600 yards, there should have been more long barreled rifles around, that's all, no need to carry 2 different types of ammo for the rifles in the squad.

68 posted on 07/13/2003 7:48:59 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: dts32041
M1911A1 is no longer made, the M1991A1 is, and there are magazines that carry 8 rounds or more for it, too.

Colt would LOVE the business!(they laid me off 4 years ago...sigh)
69 posted on 07/13/2003 7:50:39 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: nightdriver
This isn't a new problem. In Vietnam the troops had to buy drikote for themselves.
70 posted on 07/13/2003 7:51:53 PM PDT by mark_interrupted
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To: american_ranger
Why do you want the shorter sight radius?

Do you like the ladder sight better?
71 posted on 07/13/2003 8:05:02 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: demlosers
OK,This is ABSOLUTELY my last word on this subject!I load 9mm with 115grain bullets and 5grs.of Unique!I load .45ACP with 230grain bullets and 6.5-7grs.of Unique!!Can we all agree about something?That is that the 1911 Colt is far superior to the 9mm Beretta??As I said before,you can't get 10grs.of Unique into a .45ACP case!!!!!!!Enough,Already!!!!!!!!!
72 posted on 07/13/2003 8:05:23 PM PDT by bandleader
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To: RaceBannon
"M1911A1 is no longer made"


The "1911" has become more of a style rather than a specific
gun. I call my Kimber, Springfield and Colt all 1911's.
73 posted on 07/13/2003 8:06:02 PM PDT by gc4nra (this tag line protected by Kimber and the First Amendment)
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To: bandleader; Squantos
Do you really load 10 gr of Unique with 230 gr FMJ?
74 posted on 07/13/2003 8:07:44 PM PDT by TEXASPROUD
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To: mark_interrupted
Dri-coat works great on my tablesaw- I guess now I'll have to buy another can.
75 posted on 07/13/2003 8:15:59 PM PDT by CalvaryJohn
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To: RaceBannon
Yeah, I keep disregarding the logistics thing.

I don't know if it was you, but somebody else on this thread had the better idea: a long-barreled upper for the M16A2 for a longer sight radius with iron sights, or with some sort of optics. Should work.
76 posted on 07/13/2003 8:16:50 PM PDT by x1stcav ( HOOAHH!)
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To: marktwain
The Browning High Power is an excellent weapon! :-) I also hear that a guy named Glock has made some ultra reliable pistols that are favored by police in the U.S.

That's what I get for being purposely vague! ;)

Allow soldiers to buy their own personal sidearms, as long as it is of an approved caliber. The soldier will then have more confidence in their arm, and will be more likely to be proficient with it.

Interesting idea. It would complicate the armorer's life though.

77 posted on 07/13/2003 8:16:59 PM PDT by pa_dweller (This space left blank intentionally)
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To: 300winmag
Wanna bet there was no money in the budget for replacement mags during the klinton regime,

I didn't see a new M-9 mag in the FMF fer my last 10 years... only the shooting teams and the boys at the weapons lab had any new gear... M-9 is junk... why do you think the MEUs issue modified 1911s?...

78 posted on 07/13/2003 8:20:52 PM PDT by g'nad
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To: demlosers
Having"messed up"so badly with my previous replies,I will attempt to vindicate myself!I have used Hoppes #9 and standard lubricants to clean my firearms since boyhood.A friend(Marine)recently turned me on to"Tetra Gun".You have to put a mask on when using the solvent(or cotton wool in your nose),but this stuff is GREAT!It is a Fluoropolymer base that really does the job.After you have used it a few times,clean=ups are much easier(especially with fouling propellants like Unique"!!The armed forces should try this stuff!!!!!
79 posted on 07/13/2003 8:23:31 PM PDT by bandleader
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To: TEXASPROUD
The answer to that is one post 72 which is no, he doesn't.


Does anyone want to volunteer to tell him there isn't such a thing as a Long Colt? LOL.

Are you going to the shoot at New Braunfels? I'm thinking about bringing my semi-auto-revolver.
80 posted on 07/13/2003 8:24:49 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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