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Where have all the Americans gone? (Greece) (Victor Davis Hanson alert)
Townhall ^ | 7/13/03 | Victor Davis Hanson

Posted on 07/13/2003 5:07:05 AM PDT by Elkiejg

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Comment #81 Removed by Moderator

To: Cacophonous
I'm not going to be baited by your antagonism. I was admitting that I was wrong in applying what I said to the Greeks. I would hope you accept that with civility instead of resorting to name-calling. I would hope that those using this forum have a little more class than the typical liberal. Leave the snotty, sophomoric name-calling to them.

Indulge in a little petty anti-Americanism that would make Ramsey Clarke proud (not "name-calling"...oh no no no..FAR more sophisticated and nuanced than that), get caught making a sloppy historical reference by the "snotty sophomores" on Free Republic, and then call for "civility" as you slink away with your tail between your legs.

Beautiful.

82 posted on 07/13/2003 9:17:46 AM PDT by beckett
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To: jpsb
I agree. Why is it pro-American to send American troops to die for no reason, where we have nothing to gain?
83 posted on 07/13/2003 9:22:06 AM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Cacophonous
We've been in Europe since 1945.

And why do you suppose that was? C'mon - dazzle us with your understanding of history and human nature.

84 posted on 07/13/2003 9:23:52 AM PDT by Noumenon (Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away. -- Philip K. Dick)
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To: beckett
You seem to equate disagreement with policy as hatred for America, that trying to point out her wrongs and set her straight means that I am anti-American.

That's asinine.

By that logic, my parents hated me when they corrected my faults and and when they punished me for my wrongs. By that logic, telling a drunk he shouldn't get in a car means that you hate him.

No doubt you've heard the expression, "Our country, right or wrong." This has often been used as justification for anything the country does.

The full quote is, "Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right." It's the last part that is the important part. It is our duty to speak up.

Disagreeing with a policy does not make one an anti-American. Now, I may be wrong, and you may disagree, but that doesn't make either one of us anti-American.

So grow up.

85 posted on 07/13/2003 9:35:52 AM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Elkiejg
Other than the HUGE mistake about Pasok having LOST POWER and the CONSERVATIVE New Democracy Party dominating in Parlament perhaps he could have some credibility. As someone who goes there a couple times a year, his snapshot image is about 40% accurate.

You also have to know there are more people of greek ancestry in the USA than in Greece. Man of those people have interests in Greece. We speak the language and "blend" in and do not appear in the main square with our bermuda shorts, smelly cigars, pot belly and hawaian shirts.

If he was there during the protests, (mostly students and illegal immigrants from yougoslavia's fiasco) it was WINTER time. Winter is NOT a tourist season. Perhaps you can ski olympus, but there is NO BEACH LIFE IN WINTER BECAUSE IT IS COLD. In parts of sunny Greece it is snowing in the winter.

In booking flight to Greece, the flights are full and people are going.

Is there a reduction, heck yes. It is not the reduction you think. It is also not necessarily related to Greece itself. (consider europeans who do not go to california disney because there is an identical euroDisney.)

Perhaps instead of talking to euro elite, he should have spoken to the Euro ordinary. The tour opperators, the shop owners, etc. Thirty years ago the "elite" hated the USA and in thirty years hence they will still hate the USA.

(When the socialits demanded the USA remove two military bases, the USA (as part of cost cutting) immediatly agreed. The politicians were shocked at their unexpected success. They were also in deep trouble from the resulting protests from local vilages for the ecconomic bonehead move of posturing politicians.)

Right now there is an ethusiasm that the euro will "take down the dollar". Europeans are hungering for any trick to smash the dollars hold on the world. They really see the euro as the "worlds currency" (have you seen commercials for copiers with the euro money symbol? the UPS commercial touting the 9 million euro line of credit? One of the reasons I no longer ship UPS to europe)

There are too many neat sites, fun places to party til 7am, and pretty women to romance to stay away too long.
86 posted on 07/13/2003 11:40:26 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: Elkiejg; All

RANT ALERT!

Oh, this article does indeed bring back long-suppressed memories of the worst vacation I ever had in my entire life! You wanna talk about anti-American sentiment? Here goes!

Back in the '80s, I had been a very frequent guest at various Club Meds in the Caribbean and eventually earned a free vacation at any Club Med in the world. My boss at the time had a Greek wife and they owned a vacation home on the island of Corfu, so he suggested that I take the free stay at the Club Med resort there and look in on his house during my stay.

I had lots of young Greek-American friends in New Jersey who traveled to Greece very often (their parents were trying to marry them off to Greek spouses to no avail), and it sounded like fun. I also knew people from England who visited Greece just as casually and frequently as the Americans who goes to Florida. I envisioned beautiful blue and white scenery just like the travel posters. WRONG!

Pan Am was experimenting with new service between the US and Greece, so I got a cheap fare to Athens connecting through Frankfurt. From there, I was supposed to connect to a shuttle flight to Corfu.

I had a horrible feeling from the moment I touched down at the Athens airport. For one thing, I noticed how open and unsecure everything was, and how vulnerable this place would be to a hijacking. Next, they had a scam going that if you had to connect from international to domestic flights on any other airline than Olympic, you had to take an expensive cab ride to the other side of the airport.

So I stood in the checkin line for the Olympic shuttle with my luggage and prepaid paper ticket for Corfu. The connection was tight, but I still could have made it. However, two Olympic employees stood and chatted in front of the counter, deliberately ignoring me for such a long period of time that I missed the cutoff time to board the shuttle. On top of this, they refused to confirm me on the next flight or even check my luggage in, insisting that I would have to keep my suitcases with me until a vacant seat came up on a later flight. I demanded that they produce a supervisor or manager, but that man just sneered at me and said, "Hey, it's not our fault you didn't fly in on Olympic!" and refused to help.

My suitcases were too heavy to drag around, and there was no remote possibility of getting a flight until almost midnight. I looked at my itinerary and it said I had a reservation on the return trip at the 5-star Ledra Marriott in Athens, so I decided to go there for help.

It was a good thing that I'd seen a picture of the place, because the cab driver tried to rip me off by driving past the hotel. I was so tired, sweaty and bedraggled-looking at this point that the doorman didn't even want to help me out of the cab. "Are you SURE you're in the right place?" he said.

I was furious. I thought, "Well, if they're going to treat me like an 'ugly American,' then I guess it's time to play the part." I marched up to the Front Desk, whipped out my American Express Gold Card and hotel confirmation letter, slapped it down on the counter and bellowed, "I have a reservation here, and I want to see the manager NOW!!!" He came and I told him what had happened to me since I'd arrived in "his" country. I think they really just wanted to get me the hell out of the lobby, so they were very calm and helpful. They found me a quiet lounge area to relax and had a concierge make phone calls to Corfu for me, only to be unable to get anyone at the Club Med switchboard to answer the phone. "Maybe you'd rather just stay here instead?" the operator suggested (but that part of the nightmare didn't come until later). Finally someone made some headway with Olympic and when the time came, they called a cab and sent me back to the airport.

When I returned, they still refused to take my luggage because they had me on standby. In fact, they didn't call my name until the plane was on the runway about to take off, and I had to run onto the field with the damned suitcases. Fortunately, there was a nice guy from Belgium also on standby, and he helped me carry them.

At Corfu, the Belgian guy said he was also going to Club Med, but there was also a campground in addition to the resort I was going to. He told the cab driver he wanted to pay my fare when he got out at the Club Med campground and I thanked him. Unfortunately, between the campground and the resort, the cab driver started hitting on me and when I didn't make a date with him for the next evening, he demanded payment for the fare between the two places.

So now I've been traveling for 25 hours straight with no sleep, and there's no one to check me in because it's after midnight. Finally I was able to raise someone, and it turned out that I'd been assigned a roommate from France. She had the door barricaded and was sound asleep inside te room and it took a lot to wake her up. There was a bed next to the open window, so I popped onto it and fell asleep.

The next morning, the roommate left early for the beach, and it was a while before I sensed something was wrong. A ribbon of ants had been marching through the window in formation and across my body like something out of a Hitchcock movie. I screamed and ran into the bathroom, where I remembered that the shower had a detachable hose, and rinsed them off.

Now it was daylight and the Front Desk was staffed. Nobody spoke English, just French and German (there were some local Greek kitchen employees, but oddly enough, the duties were assigned in reverse with the Greek cooks making the French food and so on). It was a good thing I'd brought a dictionary along, because as soon as people determined that I was American, they instantly ignored me until I started looking it up and yelling "Beaucoup de fourmi en ma chambre!!" and then they finally serviced the room and got me some insect stuff.

What an effort this turned out to be for the next two weeks. As it turned out, there were about 20 American guests at this resort, and everyone felt quite betrayed because Club Med should never have promoted this location in their US catalog. So we decided to travel in packs, each led by someone who spoke enough French or German to communicate. I went on all the local excursions, only to discover that Corfu was absolutely NOTHING resembling the blue-and-white travel posters of my dreams. In fact, I ended up buying a t-shirt which bore the logo "Corfu: The GREEN Island" -- I could have gone to any lake in New York State if had I wanted to see greenery, not the other side of the world. Geez!

The anti-American sentiment was in full force because of upcoming elections, so the foreigners I met always advised me never to speak in public. An Australian family gave me a kangaroo stickpin to wear and coached me on their accent. One night, we were taken to a local taverna and a bunch of motorcyclists roared past us. They had angry expressions on their faces and I asked what was going on -- it was an anti-American demonstration. It was getting pretty scary.

There was one experience I had that really stuck out on my mind during all of this. A group of us went on an excursion to a place directly across the water from the border between Greece and Albania. It was a shocking study in contrasts. As darkness fell on the mainland, everything to the south was busy. I could see highways lit up with truck traffic. However, to the north, everything was pitch blackness, NO activity at all. This, I realized, was the difference between the two governments. Freedom to the south in Greece, tyranny and repression to the north in Albania. I was so sorry that I didn't have a traveling companion to share this astounding experience with. You really had to be there, because words alone really couldn't do it justice.

Anyway, when the two weeks ended, the guests were transported from Club Med to the Corfu airport for another Olympic shuttle flight back to Athens. However, there was no Olympic flight on the runway. Instead, we were directed to board an aircraft painted with the Air Lebanon logo, a big cedar tree. I really did not like the looks of this, to say the least. I was convinced we were going to be hijacked. I kept asking in Greek if the plane was really flying to Athens, and I didn't believe it until we actually touched down in that same nasty airport.

My French roommate ordered the cab at the airport, warning, "You shut mouth -- you American!" She got out at her hotel and, just like the first time, the cab driver tried to cheat me by zooming past the familiar yellow umbrellas of the Ledra Marriott. This time, the staff remembered my previous visit and greeted me warmly, and I checked into a lovely room (I don't remember exactly, but it cost over $200 per night). I thought everything was finally going to turn out OK. WRONG!

I had a friend from New Jersey who was dating a Greek actor she met on vacation. He was supposed to come to the Ledra and take me on a tour of the city that night. He never arrived, and it turned out that there was a huge anti-American demonstration in Syntagma Square that night blocking traffic in all directions, so he wasn't able to get across to meet me. By this point, nothing surprised me.

So I dined alone in the hotel restaurant that night. At first I thought it was an excellent meal and a pleasant end to what had been such a rotten trip. Everything was great until I got back to my room and spent the night throwing up with food poisoning -- right before my return trip to New York!!

It was so embarrassing, because the bellhops were carrying my luggage out to the taxi while I was making an unholy mess in the bathroom. Then I got to the airport, and watched how verbally abusive the Greek employees behind the Pan Am counter were being to the American tourists in line ahead of me. I decided to take a different tack.

I smiled warmly and politely asked if I could have a seat closer to the lavatory on the plane. I was wearing a flowing dress, and patted my stomach so they would think I was pregnant. I thought the woman-to-woman approach might work. Wrong again! The ticket agent snarled, "If you knew you were traveling in that condition, you should have made advance arrangements." At this point, I completely snapped. I slammed my hand across her computer monitor and said, "God damn it, I asked you nicely. If you don't give me what I want -- right now -- I'm going to make a mess out of both your keyboard AND your pretty aircraft -- and I'm going to enjoy it, too. Do you hear me?"

There were other American guests from the Corfu Club Med standing in line behind me, and they were puzzled. They'd seen me drinking and dancing for two weeks, and suddenly here I was claiming to be pregnant. Some of the men actually took a step back in surprise. The ticket agent glared at me and gave me a new seat assignment, so that I had three seats across all to myself. There wasn't any reason why she couldn't have done it in the first place -- the plane was half-empty!

When I got to the airport in Frankfurt, I felt much better. On the connecting flight to New York, I noticed that large number of American soldiers were on board. I was so happy to see them that I wished I could have run up and down the aisles hugging them. But I was too worn-out from my ordeal. I think I actually kissed the ground when I got to Kennedy Airport.

I don't know, in all fairness, if my trip would have been quite as miserable if I'd gone to my friends' hot spots like Mykonos, Ios or Santorini. Still, I'll never forget the bitter sting of the anti-American sentiment I witnessed in Greece -- and they'll never get one of my tourist dollars again.

PS: Almost forgot to mention that, shortly after I came home from Greece, there was indeed a hijacking that somehow involved the Athens airport. Eeek!!

87 posted on 07/13/2003 11:51:44 AM PDT by buickmackane
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To: AntiGuv
I'm not saying they do hate us or don't, or why they do or don't. Maybe they have good reason to hate us, maybe they don't. I really do not care how Greece feels about the USA.

My point is, if you're going to run your foreign policy by what the population of a 3rd (non-involved) country feels about your policy, then you're headed for a total failure, because, you can't please all the people all the time. And outsiders certainly do not have the best interests of the US in mind.

88 posted on 07/13/2003 11:54:45 AM PDT by Guillermo (Proud Infidel)
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To: VOA; Elkiejg
actually they never got the real benefit of aid after wwII.

between 1945 and 1951 the people of Greece were engaged in a civil war incursion by communists trying to take the country by force of arms. It was bloody and brutal. (there is a good book call "by fire and axe" by Averoff. It is in english)

In the end, British troops helped put the final tilt to blast the commies. (as in they used tanks in downtown athens)

The Americans and British agreed to allow a 10% commie presence in Greece to allow the USSR to stop the military arms help to the insurgents. When the states could have spoken out to support the anti-communist forces and even supplied a bullet or two, there was only silence.

Greeks remember the USA selling out a piece of the future politics, Instead of killing the commies, they set up the country for a military coup in the mid 60's, and incompetent and corrupt socialist driven gov in 70's which made people long for the junta, During the 80's the socialiest emerged but were voted out by the stagnation and inflation they brought the ecconomy.

It is only lately that the young people are turning ecconomically capitalist. They see the only way to ensure their national prosperity is to GROW THE ECCONOMY. This willnot happen under socialism or communism.

The old timers from WWII felt abandoned. (much like the Iaqi's of 1992 uprising)

Their silence during the Iraqi war is what is keeping the subsidies going. Greece gets money from the EU for historic preservation, The UN for restoration, and from the US for military assistance. Greece sees itself as caught in the middle between the larger forces at work in the world. Its sad.
89 posted on 07/13/2003 11:55:12 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: Guillermo
commies and socialist politicians hate us for winning the cold war and proving capitalism works.
90 posted on 07/13/2003 11:57:48 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: Cacophonous
They really hate russians. Russia caused a civil war in 1945-51. Russia also burned the farmers with Chernobyl.

The only thing in common is the religion and even that has nuances. (ie new vs old calendar)

You are right. Greece saw itself as caught in the middle between the USA and USSR. (als the USA needed Turkeys stategic location and that cause a whole lot of other propblems and issues)

There is also the lack of support or movement for the STILL pending cyprus invastion by Turkey.

Those who survived and fought the commies during WWII and the children of those people do hate the commies and have no love of the USSR or Russians. But greeks are loosening up, we only hold grudges for 17 generations as opposed to 30.
91 posted on 07/13/2003 12:02:41 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: Cacophonous
We've been in Europe since 1945.


At the end of WWI the United States left Europe. We had to go back 20 years letter and stop another war. We stayed after WWII, and here it is 50+ years later and we have not had another World War.

Do you mean that kind of intervention?

92 posted on 07/13/2003 12:03:16 PM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: longtermmemmory
There are too many neat sites, fun places to party til 7am, and pretty women to romance to stay away too long.

That's what I remember (somewhat fuzzily) about Greece!

As much as we beat ourselves up for not knowing about other countries, it is phenomenal the extent to which goofy conspiracy theories & misperceptions exist in the rest of the world about America. Europeans that cannot tell you about the Marshall Plan will cite mythical chapter and verse about war for oil in Iraq, contracts for natural gas pipelines in Afghanistan, CIA hits to put Pinochet in power, and why we should FREE MUMIA! Often what they are against is a caricature of America. Not sure how to solve this problem, but when Jerry Springer, Hollywood, Noam Chomsky, CNN International, the International Herald Tribune, and Michael Moore are the main sources of information about the USA then we start out behind the 8 ball.

93 posted on 07/13/2003 12:34:39 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: CIB-173RDABN
sounds good to me, well said
94 posted on 07/13/2003 12:43:43 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: mark502inf
Syndagma during chrismas is a real party central. You see some interesting street performers there. (I was surprised to find American Indian native dancers)

I fondly remember a groupleaving a night club, getting breakfast and then my dropping them off just in time for work.

(btw: some of these all night clubs have so obviously little fire safety it staggers the mind.)
95 posted on 07/13/2003 12:48:03 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: seamole
We both agree that gratitude for our help has a very weak positive effect on our self-interest, right?

I think it's been pretty negligible, yes.

And that resentment of our actions-for example, from those affected by collateral damage, or from a nation who suffers under a dictator we supported-has a stronger negative effect on our self-interest?

If you are referring to the Saudi royal family whom we've supported and who are responsible for the Islamic terrorism, that's hardly a grass roots reaction against the Saudi royal family, that's a specifically engineered action driven and guided BY the royal family. But considering that we have supported them because the alternative was Pan-Arab socialism that will undoubtely look just like Iraq and Syria... whom we have NOT supported but who have STILL also contributed to the attacks... it doesn't look like it matters what we do. They hate us for who we are, not what we do.

Think about all the countries who hate Israel. Is it because Israel bombs other countries? Supports dictators? Causes collateral damage? Nope. Israel hasn't done squat to France, Germany, Saudi, Libya, Cuba, etc etc.... but they are hated roundly, supposedly because of the "poor Palestinians." Of course, Jordan murdered 10,000 of them, Lebanon treats them worse than Israel. Are THEY hated? No. The hatred against Israel is the same as the hatred against the US.

96 posted on 07/13/2003 12:56:24 PM PDT by A_perfect_lady (I'm an Ann Coulter soul trapped in a Janeane Garofalo body.)
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To: Walkingfeather
I traveled thru Greece on a train in the early 70's. I was a college student carrying a backpack and staying in hostels. I found that the intellectuals and students were universally anti-American, but they were friendly to individual Americans. I have fond memories of sitting around outdoor cafes drinking ouzo and reading the Intl. Herald Tribune and discussing issues with people of many nationalities.

Visiting the islands, I remember one incident when our little cruise ship passed an American battleship on the seas. The crowds on the boat starting booing the ship and the USA. Everybody around me on deck, except the few American students, was booing. It made me uncomfortable.

But I found the shopkeepers very friendly. They all spoke German, moreso than English, because there were so many German tourists. I remember several of us students sat on a step and talked for an hour with a housewife as she knitted lace. It was a nice time.

I wonder if everything changed after the Achille Lauro terrorist incident.

97 posted on 07/13/2003 12:58:55 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: buickmackane
There was one experience I had that really stuck out on my mind during all of this. A group of us went on an excursion to a place directly across the water from the border between Greece and Albania. It was a shocking study in contrasts. As darkness fell on the mainland, everything to the south was busy. I could see highways lit up with truck traffic. However, to the north, everything was pitch blackness, NO activity at all. This, I realized, was the difference between the two governments. Freedom to the south in Greece, tyranny and repression to the north in Albania. I was so sorry that I didn't have a traveling companion to share this astounding experience with. You really had to be there, because words alone really couldn't do it justice.

Thanks for the rant! I have stood on the "electricity-free" Albanian coast near Sarande and looked at the lights in Corfu and thought "That sure looks like a good time!" Now I know I didn't miss that much. And for all of Albania's faults, there is probably no place in Europe more pro-American. As for the electricity, they're still working on it! Excerpt below:

Albania to look after its tourists by providing uninterrupted electricity supply Tirana, 12 June: Albanian Power Corporation (KESH) said on Thursday [12 June] that all tourist areas will be supplied with energy during the whole summer season. According to the above mentioned sources, Shkoder area up to Saranda has experienced important investments which guarantee supply with energy for the tourists who rest in the Albanian coast. KESH confirmed that it has invested over 152m lek for the electric networks along the tourists spots in our coast. Along with investment with its funds, at the tourist spots KESH keeps on rehabilitating electric networks, mainly distribution systems and that thanks to foreign donors amounting to over 9m euro. Source: ATA news agency, Tirana, in English 1512 gmt 12 Jun 03

98 posted on 07/13/2003 1:16:22 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: longtermmemmory
That is one reason, yes, why they hate the USA.

For 45 years of the Cold War, they viewed the USA as the aggressor nation who needed to be kept in check.

They lament the fall of the USSR, because it was a "counterweight" to US "hegemony."
99 posted on 07/13/2003 1:34:43 PM PDT by Guillermo (Proud Infidel)
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To: CIB-173RDABN
Oh I get it. If we put troops in every part of the world, there will be no more war. Thanks for explaining it to me.
100 posted on 07/13/2003 7:14:30 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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