First Mosque Opens in Spain in 500+ Years

The Guardian ^ | Thursday July 10, 2003 | DANIEL WOOLLS

[stands2reason]

It's Bush's fault!!!

[stands2reason]

So does this mean that Christians can build churches in Muslim countries now?

Sure, why not?

As long as you're not asking them to remain standing for more than a week.

[Pro-Bush]

The difference is that Christianity has gone through a reformation, and Islam has not. I know the goals of Islam. Just a little clue, Islam is not a religion of peace. Your position on this issue gives you away.

[stands2reason]

You sound like an apologist for Islamofascists.

Pro- Bush, meet zimdog.

[Pro-Bush]

..lol I can say it is not a pleasure.

[zimdog]

The Religion of Peace, 16th century style

from http://www.cuba-junky.com/cuba/hatuey.html

In 1511, Diego Velásquez sailed from Hispaniola (now the Dominican Republic) to conquer and colonize Cuba. Among his soldiers in that expedition was Hernán Cortés, who later conquered Mexico. When he arrived in Cuba, Velásquez founded the island’s first Spanish settlement at Baracoa. Meanwhile, reports from the Indians of Hispaniola reached Cuba.

Hatuey, a Taíno chief, had escaped in canoes with about four-hundred men, women and children, to warn the Cubans about what to expect from the Spaniards. He explained the need to join against their common enemy, the white men who had inflicted so much suffering on his people. As later recorded by Spanish priest Bartolomé de las Casas, Hatuey showed the Cubans a basket full of gold and jewels. “Here is the God the Spaniards worship,” he said, “for these they fight and kill; for these they persecute us and that is why we have to throw them into the sea… “They tell us, these tyrants, that they adore a God of peace and equality, and yet they usurp our land and make us their slaves. They speak to us of an immortal soul and of their eternal rewards and punishments, and yet they rob our belongings, seduce our women, violate our daughters.

Incapable of matching us in valor, these cowards cover themselves with iron that our weapons cannot break…” The Taínos of western and central Cuba could not believe the horrendous message brought by Hatuey, and few joined him. Hatuey’s strategy against the Spaniards was to attack, guerilla fashion, and then disperse to the hills, where the Indians would regroup for the next attack. For about three months Hatuey’s tactics kept the Spaniards on the defensive, afraid to leave their fort at Baracoa. Through a traitor, Velásquez was able to surround and capture Hatuey.

On February 2, 1512, Hatuey was tied to a stake at the Spanish camp, where he was burned alive. Just before lighting the fire, a priest offered him spiritual comfort, showing him the cross and asking him to accept Jesus and go to heaven. “Are there people like you in heaven?” he asked. “There are many like me in heaven,” answered the priest. Hatuey answered that he wanted nothing to do with a God that would allow such cruelty to be unleashed in his name. De Las Casas describes the fate of the Taínos. A village of about twenty-five hundred who welcomed the Spaniards, fed them and gave them drink, was immediately wiped out once the feast was over, “they set upon the Indians,” he wrote, “slashing, disemboweling and slaughtering them until their blood ran like a river.” Of those sent to the mines, he said, the Spaniards “required of them tasks utterly beyond their strength, bending them to the earth with crushing burdens, harnessing them to loads which they could not drag, and with fiendish sport and mockery, hacking off their hands and feet, and mutilating their bodies in ways which will not bear description.”

[zimdog]

Does that mean that pre-Reformation Christianity was not a religion of peace?

[Pro-Bush]

ooh, those evil Christians. This was almost 500 years ago. Like I said, Christianity went through a transformation, Islam has not.

...Obviously, Islam still kill in the name of religion.

You're a sick pig if you buy into that crap, which I believe you do.

[Pro-Bush]

Does that mean that pre-Reformation Christianity was not a religion of peace?

I would say for a few hundred years, it was not.

[sonofron]

"that having been said, the spanish came to the americans in the name of their religion of peace and brought nothing of the sort."

If you think that Cortez and the like came to America to spread chrisitanity, then you need to go back to the library. The spaniards who did most of the dirty work were interested in one main thing -Gold. Riches were the main motivation for columbus's voyage, not spreading the christian faith. And riches were the reason why those civilizations were distroyed. If you ask me, they were doomed, since they hadn't even figured out how to make iron yet. *yawn*

Go get a refund.

[zimdog]

I don't think that Cortez came to America to spread Christianity, but he did come IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY and in the service of Their Most Christian Majesties, Ferdinand y Isabella. The conquest was carried out in the name of Christianity and justified by the requerimiento.
from http://www.albion.edu/english/Diedrick/Newberry2000/requerimiento.htm

Problems of force in Spanish-Indian relations became progressively more compelling as colonists subjugated native people=s in compulsory labor and attacked them in outright war. In Cuba beginning in 1511 occurred a military invasion not unlike the famous conquests on the mainland in 1519 and after. Rights of conquest had been postulated by the Treaty of Alcacovas, as well as by many earlier documents. But Spaniards now felt the need for a more particular justification, and the result was the Requerimiento, a document designed to be ready to enemy Indians before battle. Its complex message, even if delivered audibly and in a language intelligible to Indians-conditions that were rarely achieved-pointed to one conclusion: that the ensuing battle and subjugation and enslavement and death and robbery were the fault of the Indians, not of the Spaniards. Note the typical concern at the end for the notarial sanction and the confirmation of witnesses, without which no Requerimiento record could be wholly valid.

---

On the part of the king, Don Ferdinand, and of Dona Juana, his daughter, queen of Castile and Le=on, subduers of the barbarous nations, we their servants notify and make known to you, as best we can, that the Lord our God, living and eternal, created the heaven and the earth, and one man and one woman, of whom you and we, and all the men of the world, were and are descendants, as well as all those who come after us. But on account of the multitude which has sprung from this man and woman in five thousand years since the world was created, it was necessary that some men should go one way and some another, and that they should be divided into many kingdoms and provinces, for in one alone they could not be sustained.

Of all these nations God our lord gave charge to one man called St. Peter, that he should be lord and superior to all the men in the world, that all should obey him, and that he should be the head of the whole human race, whenever men should live, and under whatever law, sect, or belief they should be; and he gave him the world for his kingdom and jurisdiction.

And he commanded him to place his seat in Rome, as the spot most fitting to rule the world from; but also he permitted him to have his seat in any other part of the world, and to judge and govern all Christians, Moors, Jews, Gentiles, and all other sects. This man was called Pope, as if to say Admirable Great Father and Governor of men. The men who lived in that time obeyed that St. Peter and took him for lord, king, and superior of the universe. So also they have regarded the others who after him have been elected to the pontificate, and so has it been continued even till now, and will continue till the end of the world.

One of these pontiffs, who succeeded that St. Peter as lord of the world, in the dignity and seat which I have before mentioned, made donation of these islands and mainland to the aforesaid king and queen and to their successors, our lords, with all that there are in these territories, as is contained in certain writings which passed upon the subject as aforesaid, which you can see if you wish.

So their highnesses are kings and lords of these islands and mainland by virtue of this donation; and some islands, and indeed almost all those to whom this has been notified, have received and served their highnesses, as lords and kings, in the way that subjects ought to do, with good will, without any resistance, immediately, without delay, when they were informed any resistance, immediately, without delay, when they were informed of the aforesaid facts. And also they received and obeyed the priests whom their highnesses sent to preach to them and to teach them our holy faith; and all these, of their own free will, without any reward or condition have become Christians, and are so, and the highnesses have joyfully and graciously received them, and they have also commanded them to be treated as their subjects and vassals; and you too are held and obliged to do the same. Wherefore, as best we can, we ask and require that you consider what we have said to you, and that you take the time that shall be necessary to understand and deliberate upon it, and that you acknowledge the Church as the ruler and superior of the whole world and the high priest called Pope and in his name the king and queen Dona Juana our lords, in his place, as superiors and lords and kings of these islands and this mainland by virtue of the said donation, and that you consent and permit that these religious fathers declare and preach to you the aforesaid.

If you do so you will do well, and that which you are obliged to do to their highnesses, and we in their name shall receive you in all love and charity, and shall leave you your wives and your children and your lands free without servitude, that you may do with them and with yourselves freely what you and think best, and they shall not compel you to turn Christians unless you yourselves, when informed of the truth, should wish to be converted to our holy Catholic faith, as almost all the inhabitants of the rest of the islands have done. And besides this, their highnesses award you many privileges and exemptions and will grant you many benefits.

---

And no, American civilizations did not know how to make iron because iron (Fe) is an element (http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Fe/key.html) and cannot be manufactured. Today highly sophisticated subatomic manipulation makes it possible (but not profitable) to synthesize iron, but that technique was only developed in the late 20th century.

Most significant quantities of iron in the Americas are deep underground, so unlike in Africa and Europe, it is not available except through mining.

[SunkenCiv]

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[Black Agnes]

The spread of Islam justifies their surveillance state.