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To: TheCrusader
I'll let other readers judge whether my previous posts are smoke and mirrors, as you charge.

When Jesus offered His disciples bread, he said, "take eat, this is my body." Christ was standing there in His body, offering them bread. He was not asking them to begin gnawing on his literal flesh but on the bread. The Bible never says the bread changed into his body. Most rational people would take his offer to mean that the bread represents the body they saw standing before them. If I open my wallet and take out a picture of my children and tell someone "Here are my children," any rational person would know that I meant that the picture is a likeness or a representation of my children. How many people would think that my children really consist of kodak paper and ink. If I show them I picture of my house, I doubt if anyone with any sense would think that I actually live in the photograph. When the classic work of art, Mona Lisa, was painted, most people know that the paint on the canvas is not actually the person Mona Lisa. In Luke 22:19 and 1Cor.11:24 Christ said that the bread and the fruit of the vine was to be done "in remembrance." In the Lord's Supper we remember Him and His sacrifice, we don't re-sacrifice Him. This is not rocket science.

The Catholic church claims that Christ must be re-sacrificed in the mass. And yet the Bible could not be any clearer on this subject:

Heb.7:25 "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb.9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us...25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb.10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

When Christ shed His blodd and died His substitutionary sacrificial death on the cross, He cried out, "It is finished." This corresponds with the aorist tense of the Greek words used in Hebrews meaning not just "once," but "once for all forever."

The Apostle Peter uses this same kind of language in describing Christ's sacrifial death in 1Pet.3:18.

1Pet.3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Likewise from the Apostle Paul:

Rom.6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Most Protestants believe that the taking of unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine in the Lord's Supper is a beautiful and meaningful service in which we examine ourselves and repent of sins, and remember the tremendous price that Christ paid on the cross for those sins. But we don't for a minute we believe we are chewing Jesus when we eat the bread.

Father John O’Brien gives the unscriptural and blasphemous view of this alleged "re-sacrificing" of Christ in the Roman Catholic Mass in his book, The Faith of Millions:

When the priest announces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. The priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man—not once but a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows his head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.

The unscriptural nature of such arrogant blasphemous statements by the Roman Catholic Church is one of the main sparks that lit the fires of the Reformation. The beginning of the Reformation, with Wycliffe and Huss, long before Luther, coincides with the availability of the Bible in the language of the common man. No person who knows the Scripture could abide a church that has drifted so far away from the clear teachings of the Word of God.

But when the priest says the magic words over the wafers, they are supposed to become Christ's body. The congregation is to bow before their wafer god, for, after all, it is now Christ. An attendant with a net follows the giving of the wafer to the communicant so that if Jesus [the wafer] is mishandled, He won't have to suffer the indignity of falling on the ground, but will be caught in the net. In many parts of the world, the wafer is placed in a golden sunburst styled frame and held aloft as a procession makes its way down the street so that everyone can "adore" the wafer god.

Pope Pius XI associated the worship of Christ in The Blessed Sacrament with expiation for sin. The Angel at Fatima and the Blessed Mother taught us to adore the Blessed Sacrament and make reparation for our sins. John Paul II said "all the evils of the world could be overcome through the great power of Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration. The devil is put to flight wherever Jesus is adored in the Most Blessed Sacrament." He asked, "How will young people be able to know the Lord if they are not introduced to the mystery of his presence?" Pope Paul VI proclaimed, "How great is the value of conversation with Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, for there is nothing more efficacious for advancing along the road of holiness!" Catholics can now enjoy all these benefits by adoring the Eucharist on the Internet. A site has been set up using a "web cam" for long distance "adoration."

Many Catholics, upon being questioned about this subject will deny that their Sacrifice of the Mass is really a weekly resacrifice of Christ's actual physical body and blood for their sins. But what is prayed by the priest when he consecrates the host [bread]?

We offer to you, God of glory and majesty, this holy and perfect sacrifice the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation. Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our Father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchizedek. Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing.

Catholics even have their own their own version of the TEN COMMANDMENTS. They leave out the Second Commandment which forbids the making of graven images to be used in worship. To make their edited version of the Commandments still add up to ten they usually split the Tenth Commandment, which forbids covetousness, into two commandments. Again this is typical of Catholicism. When church tradition and the pope's ex-cathedra statements contradict Scripture, Roman Catholicism always goes with tradition and the pope.

By the way, Baptists and most Protestants do as Jesus commanded and take the bread and the fruit of the vine. Catholics only are allowed to take the bread. For some reason Catholics must believe the bread becomes Christ's literal flesh when they eat it, but are not permitted to take the cup, which Christ also commanded, and drink what the Catholics believe has magically turned into Christ's human blood.

This whole matter of whether the bread and the fruit of the vine becomes the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ after the priest consecrates it could easily be solved by submitting the bread to chemical analysis before its consecration and after its consecration.

Many people may feel that this whole issue is not important. But since the Catholic church pronounces a curse [anathema] on those who refuse to believe the bread and juice becomes Christ's actual physical flesh and blood, and since thousands of Protestants were tortured and executed for refusing to accept this lunacy, the issue should be seen as very important after all.

If anyone is guilty of using smoke and mirrors, it is the pretentious priest who attempts to make all of the onlookers believe that his Latin mumbo jumbo is turning a wafer of bread and some wine into the God of the Universe, so participants can dine on Him.

199 posted on 07/22/2003 12:41:12 AM PDT by razorbak
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To: razorbak
"He was not asking them to begin gnawing on his literal flesh but on the bread."

Exactly what I said before, thanks for finally seeing it the Catholic way. The bread became the substantial form of Christ's body as soon as He said: "this is my body"; at which time Christ instituted His doctrine of His Real Presence in the bread and wine that He blessed, (consecrated).

As I have already proved this doctrine through the well documented historical fact of Roman persecution of early Christians for "cannibalism", (their belief they were truly eating the body and blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist), and through the even better documented writings of the earliest Christian bishops and Saints on the subject, I shall not return to documented secular history and well recorded Christian tradition again. Such irrefutable evidence has always been overlooked and swept under the rug of denial by Luther's legion of Protestants, Fundamentalists and other heretics, you are no exception. In this regard, it is time to shake the dust off my sandals and leave you to your own devices, (which, by the way, is where your "faith" lies, in yourself. True faith lies in the belief of something outside of your rational thought).


"The Bible never says the bread changed into his body. Most rational people would take his offer to mean that the bread represents the body they saw standing before them."

On the contrary, the Bible is loaded with verses that reveal the consecrated bread and wine of the Eucharist do indeed become for us the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

"(1). The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Corintians 10: 15-16)

(2). "I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." (John 6: 51).

(3). "At this time, the Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you"; (John 6: 52-52)

(4). "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him". (John 6:55-56).

(5). "Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body". And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying,"Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Mathew 26: 26-28)

SAINT PAUL EXPLAINS THE DOCTRINE OF THE EUCHARIST, AND GIVES SEVERE WARNING THOSE WHO DO NOT DISCERN THE BODY OF THE LORD IN THE EUCHARIST

"For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lords death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself". (1 Corinthians 11: 26-29)

Now, you must ask yourself, how can a man sin greviously by profaning the body and blood of Jesus Christ if the consecrated bread and wine are merely "symbolic" of His body and blood? Nowhere in any of Paul's discourses, or Christ's words, do we see the Eucharist reduced to a mere symbol. On the contrary, It is repeatedly referred to as the "body and blood" of Jesus, "the bread of life", "the blood of the Convenant", and It is reverently approached as the most sanctified Holy of Holies by Paul as you just read, (above).

Indeed, so holy is the Eucharist that you must approach and recieve It only after examining your conscience, and receive It "worthily", or else you literally profane it. (1 Corinthians 11:29).

202 posted on 07/22/2003 6:11:11 AM PDT by TheCrusader
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