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To: reflecting
"Now we would not want to change the subject and bring up some tasty quotes from the popes."

The "Prince of the Apostles" and first Pope, Saint Peter, was a sinner. He denied Christ three times. Other Popes were known to sin too. Some usurpers even had to be deemed "anti Popes". There are no Christians who didn't sin, for that matter. But what does this prove? The argument is not whether individual Popes were sinners, (for they all were), it's whether or not they taught heresy regarding Christian doctrine and lead souls astray. While some Popes absolutely fell prey to sin, they were always protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching doctrinal error that would led a soul the hell. Jesus Christ Himself prayed that Peter's faith would never fail, and commissioned Peter to "strengthen his brethren". "but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." (Luke 22: 32-33). Three times Jesus commissioned Peter to teach and strenghten Christians in their faith: "feed my sheep - feed my sheep - feed my lambs" (John 21: 15). And Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom and granted him the power to "bind and loose". "19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.". (Mathew 16:19).

There are a lot of fallicies out there regarding the office of the Pope, the greatest being that Catholics think the Popes cannot sin or ever be wrong. They can sin, and they can be wrong in just about every area of life - all but the essential doctrines of Jesus Christ, those things which Christians must believe in order to have salvation. In other words, those essential things revealed in Scripture and oral Tradition that Christians have believed from the beginning, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by epistle. (2 Thess. 2:15).

So the message is quite simple, while both the Popes and Martin Luther were sinners, Martin Luther broke from Christian traditions and from Christian Scripture and taught new doctrines, (heresy). Had Luther, the very founder of Protestantism and of whom his church is named after, the Lutheran Church, had successors I would have focused only on his heretical quotes and not also on his mad rantings and ravings and hatreds. But since he is the father of Protestantism, and since he establshed his own paralell Christian Church minus some original doctrines and sacraments, and since he is not seen in Scripture speaking with Jesus, and since he is not mentioned in Scripture prophesy as some future rescuer of Christianity gone astray, I decided to focus on both his doctrinal errors and his cruelty and insanity.

12 posted on 07/10/2003 8:45:53 AM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: TheCrusader
I'm a Lutheran myself and have on occasion come dangerously close to espousing catholic tradition. Thankfully there are always good folks as yourself to put things back into perspective for me.
16 posted on 07/10/2003 9:56:42 AM PDT by homeschool_dad
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To: TheCrusader
Here's my choice: follow Christ to heaven or the pope to hell. Ummmmmm...... any guess which one I'll be choosing?
17 posted on 07/10/2003 9:59:12 AM PDT by homeschool_dad
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To: TheCrusader
Your convoluted logic flys in the face of "Foxes book of Martyrs"... which was not about Luther but about some of what caused his aguish.. not mentioned in the PBS piece but so relevant as an adjunct to the Luther story.

There is an online copy of the book that is Google'able... Quite different look at the time in question. Interesting to boot...

93 posted on 07/11/2003 1:06:09 PM PDT by hosepipe
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To: TheCrusader
Martin Luther teaches the Gospel recovered from corrupt Popes.

You bring up James, all the while ignoring other Scriptures that make justification by faith an obvious doctrine.

Not convincing in the least.
143 posted on 07/16/2003 11:13:16 AM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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