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To: SupplySider; Dajjal
In my view, Jim Jones and David Koresh are not much different from Al Queda, and it is important that we look at ourselves and our ideas.

CROSS 9/11 TANGLE OF TERROR I still disagree with you, but it's worth explaining why. There has been a great tendency toward cultural relativism in the west over the past 60 years. But is it reasonable? Peoples have mixed and talked, and compared notes about western influences. They question our enthusiasm for democracy. They question our hypocritical demands for human rights. Ideologies such as Maoism have dared to question the assumption that antibiotics and high speed Internet are the future of the whole human race. Other nations have asserted their right to sovereignty and statehood despite conflicting interests with America and its allies. I know this well. But I don't want to disconnect, and I see you're happy to drink at the data trough too. We want progress, and more of it. And we're not going to give it up lightly. But where did endless progress originate? Our strength comes from a blend of common values and a shifting of emphasis toward making our own success from whatever we find around ourselves. The Reformation has been good to the west. And it has brought much tolerance and kindness, all said and done. And without global opposition, American progress would continue. I think it will in any case!

Regarding your equating of most spiritual fervor with violent zeal, I think you may be letting your fear of religion in general cloud your view of western civilization. This is a common theme in academia and the arts, and I see it merely as an indicator, a gauge of our advancement. We have come this far, and now we're looking back to see how. Some guilt is creeping in. A will toward reconciliation has taken our thoughts. But we can't begin to question ourselves so much that we are afraid to survive. A little self doubt is healthy. Too much will cut off our ability to sustain ourselves; we could lose the thread of forward continuity. We could be crushed by the thronging billions beyond our borders if we fail to remember who we are and why we should have a chance to thrive. I realize that much evil has been done in the name of religion in the west. But all around us you can find people seeking to define for themselves what their scriptures mean, what their believes imply for their personal lives, and how they should act on those teachings. The urge toward spirituality is something that can't be eliminated with physics equations and social theories. We can be proud of the religious tolerance we have built here in this country. It goes all the way back to the Gunpowder Plot in England, where some wanted to continue practicing Catholicism instead of converting to the Anglican church for the King's moral convenience. It continued with the Pilgrims coming to America to be allowed to interpret the Bible their own way. And it developed further when Roger Williams departed from their midst to form the state of Rhode Island in order to avoid their own form of dogmatic oppression. We have learned to keep a balance between our own ideas and those of others. You may find extremism from time to time, but always look for checks on its power. Devout Christians keep a close eye on their fellow practicioners, and they are quick to point out when conviction has gone too far.

[I]f you see no similarities between what was expressed by Muslims in that post and the beliefs expressed by some fundamentalist Christians about the coming apocalypse, I think you are being disingenuous or closing your mind.

I understand your thinking well. Most intellectuals are interested in human progress and decreased dependence on beliefs in the imagined; they expect our secular and practical convictions to rely more and more on observable facts. However, civilizations ebb and flow, enlightenment of a group of people waxes and wanes. What is next for us? Is religion at the heart of our dilemma, or is it merely a reaction to it? Does talk of resuming the Crusades come out of blind passion for religion, or does it come out of fear for our future in the face of a billion people who think that they could be on a collision course with us based only on religious teachings? So what if a few Americans revert to their faith and lay hands on the Bible in hopes that they can gain some comfort. That would be a reaction, not an action in this conflict. Who started this conflict? Remember that we were bin Laden's benefactor in the Afgan war with the Soviets. He thinks he defeated them himself, but it was we who made that possible. The religious Crusade at hand is a Muslim one, and nothing else. Spanish Inquisition

But even you should recognize that Christianity has undergone a massive reformation over the past half millennium. I'm not very interested in Jim Jones because his Koolade trick was a brief titter of noise in the overall chorus of American religiosity. Jones and his mass deception does make me pause and consider how a certain element among us could be led to the slaughter without a second thought, but that's only tangentially related to our discussion. Furthermore, I take umbrage with your choice of lumping David Koresh in with Jones. Since I disagreed with Koresh, I see the shaky foundation of your point. But Waco is hardly an incident to bring up lightly in a predominately right-wing christian forum. It betrays a certain willingness on your part to invoke the bizarre and the exceptional in your efforts to prove a fundamental aspect of human spirituality. There are many worse incidents, some that happen daily around this nation, that you could have invoked. So I wouldn't be surprised if you dismiss anyone who might have strong beliefs in something you don't understand as "mystical" and "dangerous."

A phobia for superstition is fair enough for an intellectual, but a comparison of Christianity's potential for extremism and Islam's would have had no place at Ground Zero on 9/11 in the bone-laden rubble. And that brings me to my main point: you can question how and why we are what we are, but if you are one of us, there's nothing you can do to shake off your ties to America. And if it pains you to see us going to war without your blessing, if you fear the consequences, and if you find that you just can't identify with the fervent prayers being murmured around you, I have one request: try to be patient. Continue pointing out the error of our ways, and continue asking us to consider another choice, but don't give up on your fellow Americans. Christians are not the enemy. They did not attack you. And if some Americans pray, it's because they are afraid, and it's the best comfort they know.

49 posted on 06/28/2003 7:11:07 AM PDT by risk
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To: risk; SupplySider
Jim Jones turned his murderous eye upon his own followers.

And David Koresh and his band may have been collecting weapons, but from their speeches and writings they displayed a defensive mentality. Koresh thought that the "New World Order" would attack him, and managed to get that prophecy self-fulfilled.

Neither of these extremists holds a candle to the jihad-inciting mullahs preaching hate throughout the mosques and madrasas of the globe.

50 posted on 06/28/2003 9:39:13 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: risk; SupplySider
On top of that, the most popular form of Christian millennialism nowadays is a belief in "the Rapture." This interpretation says that the true believers will all vanish from the face of the earth and be taken to Heaven before the Battle of Armageddon starts. Those of luke-warm faith who are "left behind" (as the book title implies) will supposedly have to deal with nasty stuff.

"Rapture" millennialism is the polar opposite of the Muslim's "jihad" millennialism.

51 posted on 06/28/2003 9:52:03 AM PDT by Dajjal
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