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To: LIBERTARIAN JOE
"You 'free traders' almost always get it wrong with your argument that protectionism cost consumers money. Think about it... we do live in a socialist country. When another american (or another million americans!) loses his job and can't find another, he doesn't disappear and neither does his family. He does however still consume, require health care, a home, etc. And who pays? I do!"

So, let me see if I understand your argument. The government should erect barriers to free trade to preserve jobs and minimize the welfare rolls? You are saying that the government should force some Americans to pay more for goods and services in order that other Americans have a certain standard of living. What a strange argument for a person who posts under the name "Libertarian Joe". What you are saying is that Peter has a right to the property of Paul.

"I hope your gated community has strong gates because before long they will surely be tested."

Normally this argument is made by members of the democrat party, not libertarians. Essentially, you are saying that if I don't give you some of my property, then you'll come and take it. Hardly a libertarian argument.
110 posted on 06/15/2003 3:48:36 PM PDT by DugwayDuke
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To: DugwayDuke
Please not I would not be complaining about OPIC ifd it were a private corporation I am complaining because it is a US government agenbcy with teh full faith and credit of the United states government behind it. that in case you did not know is taxpayers. any statements about jobs created in the US erconomy must be balanced by jobs destroyed in teh US economy and the duration of the jobs created versus the probale duration of the jobs destroyed.
119 posted on 06/15/2003 4:52:03 PM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: DugwayDuke
So, let me see if I understand your argument. The government should erect barriers to free trade to preserve jobs and minimize the welfare rolls? You are saying that the government should force some Americans to pay more for goods and services in order that other Americans have a certain standard of living. What a strange argument for a person who posts under the name "Libertarian Joe". What you are saying is that Peter has a right to the property of Paul.

You obviously didn't read my post closely enough to understand. Let me try again. The government has established a vast social welfare system in this nation. It takes 50% of my paycheck, at gunpoint, to pay for these social welfare programs. The cost of these programs is part of the price we pay to live in this nation. We, collectively as a society, have decided that socialism is the way to go. With no tariffs imposed on imported goods or services, the greedy, me-first consumer or businessman can take his business overseas, to countries without such programs, and, individually, benefit greatly from lower prices. But, as I said, the true cost of these cheap imported goods must include the additional tax burden imposed on those of us still working here, who pay for the needs of those who lose or suffer a decline in income as a result of you sending your business overseas.

It is a legitiment function of government to 'level the playing field' by using taxes and tariffs to bring foreign goods prices up to what the real cost of those products are. Otherwise, certain sub-sets of this nation (greedy businessmen, consumers of chinese crap) benefit from the subsidized goods, but taxpayers, as a whole, pay the difference between the price you pay and the price society pays. Now, you obviously benefit more from lowered prices than you pay in additional taxes, but that's not the case for most of us, or society as a whole.

Environmetal, OSHA and the myriad of other regulatory burdens imposed on american industry are another example of my argument. We, as a society, have placed great stock in the quality of the environment, in workplace safety and general quality of life. These burdens, that american business and american workers must shoulder, greatly increase the cost of doing business in the U.S. The cost of these regulatory burdens are part of the price we pay to live in this nation.Taxes, tariffs and, if necessary, trade barriers have to be enacted by government to make sure that those who send their business overseas still pay their fair share here.

"I hope your gated community has strong gates because before long they will surely be tested."

Normally this argument is made by members of the democrat party, not libertarians. Essentially, you are saying that if I don't give you some of my property, then you'll come and take it. Hardly a libertarian argument.

I’m saying no such thing. I’m pretty well off and working in a field that is only just now starting to be ‘exported’. I’m in OK shape to have my job sent to central or south america (the destination of choice for exported civil engineering jobs) right now, and in just a few more years, a low paying service job will be all the income I require if it comes to that. What I’m saying is that you benefit from living in this country. You enjoy a quality of life that was paid for by generations of americans building the infrastructure and institutions that make life pretty good here. Now, your attitude is, ‘I got mine’ and you’re just not willing to see the big picture. If you can get clothes for a lower price, what’s a few million lost textile jobs. Let the taxpayers (chumps) pay to feed the newly unemployed, clothe them, house them and reeducate them to take a job in the auto industry (gone to the japs), the software industry (indians), building trades (mexicans), etc. And when the economy collapses because there’s not enough of us chumps left to pay the bills, it’ll be a couple of hundred million of the destitute breaking down your door, and mine as well.

146 posted on 06/15/2003 9:06:44 PM PDT by LIBERTARIAN JOE
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