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To: Pukin Dog
I'll be leaving now...

I hope that you stick around. What the IT people need to realize (I am one, before anyone throws rocks) is that programming, per se, is a commodity, and like any commodity used in manufacturing, it is purchased from the lowest-priced bidder. Don't kid yourself, programming is just the manufacture of computer programs. The large companies like IBM and AT&T have been hiring contract programming in third-world countries for at least two decades.

Twenty years ago there was talk that in the near future, people would be transformed from employees married to a company to independent contractors. I am surprised that it has taken this long to come to fruition. That future is now. And you who speak of company loyalty, that is a dream, as is employee loyalty. If a company can make money and be loyal, it will. When it comes to a choice between being loyal and being profitable, guess which wins? And employees are no different. You can be loyal to your employer as long as you are paid adequately. But if you come down to a choice of paying the bills or being loyal to your employer, guess which wins? It cuts both ways.

I am constantly surprised by the way that otherwise intelligent people live to the fullest extent that they can afford. And I am talking luxury with a capital 'L' for some. One missed paycheck and they are up the creek. I remember a friend of mine - he and his wife both worked. His wife got a $50/month raise. They racked their brains for two weeks trying to figure what they could buy for $50/month with the money!

This attitude is not limited to IT professionals, by the way. I recall walking into a local brokerage branch office 15 years ago because I wanted to open an account. I was dressed casually as I had taken the day off. I was shocked at the attitude I saw. Here were half a dozen guys in their early twenties, sitting at enormous desks in enormous chairs, with their feet up, smoking cigars, each being overly impressed with themselves. They were doing nothing! I stood in the entrance room in full view of them all. After ten minutes, one put his Wall Street Journal down with an irritated look, and came over to ask what I wanted. I told him that I had come to open an account, but after the first few minutes I had realized that they must have enough accounts and did not want any more business. I was just waiting out of curiosity to see how long it would be before someone came over. I then went elsewhere.

I chose to purchase a moderately-priced house while my co-workers bought mansions. My goal was to pay it off in 15 years, but I took a 30-year mortgage to lock in lower payments in case times got tough. I paid the mortgage, however, at the rate as if it were a 15-year mortgage. I still live in that house, which is paid for, and drive mid-sized American cars while my peers drive BMWs and Mercedes.

To remain employed these days, you have to be marketable. This means not only keeping your skills up (often on your own time) but also developing skills that distinguish you from the competition. Yes, it is difficult. Nobody ever promised me that it would be easy.

I will reiterate what I've said before. Develop your skills and position yourself into having something to offer that few have (very difficult) or into performing some sort of service that cannot be achieved by anyone with a computer anywhere in the world with a telephone line or better. There are still many things that require your physical Presence, but you have to look for them. And you have to have moderate goals that are achievable.

84 posted on 06/03/2003 5:29:58 AM PDT by NCjim
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To: NCjim
Back to answer you.

I do not plan on leaving Free Republic; no amount of negativity could accomplish that. I only mean that I will not choose to engage those who feel that when devoid of argument, resort to name calling and hostile comments, as though agreement were a prerequisite for conversation.

At some point, it appears that each post boils down to the same tired rhetoric, where neither side listens to the other. When that occurs, there is no reason to continue posting.

As for your comments, I am in complete agreement with you.
85 posted on 06/03/2003 8:34:38 AM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: NCjim
Programmers only spend about 10% of their total time actually programming, there is a lot more to the job than just slinging code. Good environments for coding involve having the programmers wearing several hats, gathering business requirements, doing upfront design and analysis, it is here where the value comes in, not in the ability to sling code in there. It is here where the American programmer shines over the offshore coders. In fact, if the company wishes to save money, they should can the business analysts and instead employ good programmers who also understand the business and have good soft skills. Over the long run, they will save a hell of a lot more money.
102 posted on 06/03/2003 2:34:25 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: NCjim
The large companies like IBM and AT&T have been hiring contract programming in third-world countries for at least two decades.

Yes, BUT! Having worked next to an outsourced project, what we got was crap.

Now upper management excels at producing and marketing crap, so the immediate impact is not felt. Our company has a graph of cost vs. return for their different locations. Going overseas is cheap, but you really do get what you pay for.

For many business, buggy, inaccurate software is ok and they will gladly pay less for it. But there will always be those who are willing to pay a premium for quality.

Just like everything else, once the boom is over the cream rises to the top and the dregs go to the bottom. If you are good, you will be able to program for a living. It is just that a Computer Science degree is no longer an automatic meal ticket.

120 posted on 06/05/2003 8:52:31 AM PDT by hopespringseternal
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To: NCjim
You have pretty much duplicated my thoughts. I survived the demise of the electronics manufacturering industry from the late 1960's on.

I went into the service end, and later after learning the ropes established my own company. After a lot of sacrifice and hard work it has matured and is doing well.

Suprising as it may seem it is hard to find good, well educated people with a broad background that can learn or are willing to learn a new skill even at my expense. They all want to sit around and hope their skill will be resurrected, or the Govt will do something. I think many were so narrowly focused that they are afraid to take a wide excursion from their previous line.

I have a good friend, a former network Admin with a EE degree. Lost his network job, took another as a EE, lost that, went to school for heating and AC for 6 months. Now he is doing very well, loves his job, because of his educational level he knows how to relate to customers, and in 6 months with his new employeer the top employee. I had hoped to hire him now I don't know if I can afford him.

There are a great many service related fields that are in dire need of educated people. They might not have fancy titles, but they can pay just about as well and be fun too.

I remember what Runion of the Postal Service said when he initiated the first major overhall, "If your hands don't touch the mail in the Postal Service your job is in jepordy"

134 posted on 06/05/2003 10:15:01 AM PDT by helper
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