Techies see jobs go overseas - Opposition to offshore outsourcing beginning to grow

San Francisco Chronicle ^ | 06/02/2003 | Carrie Kirby

[droberts]

I doubt you're right simply because the American worker has become so docile and distracted with NBA, NFL, WWF crap as to give a shit about being shafted on a regular basis. For example, look at the Enron executives, why have none of them been lynched yet?

[illumini]

Any company that does what you describe above would not remain in business very long.

Pardon me, but I have managed aircraft overhaul at a major airline, in the main base.

When an aircraft comes in which has been "outsourced" previously on a major modification or overhaul, one of the first things we find is improper wiring, chafing bundles, and missed or overlooked items which should have been taken care of on the last check. We document them and fix them.

The quality control at domestic chop shops is poor enough. As the aircraft work goes overseas, incidents will increase. I have saved hundreds of pages of eveidence over the years, "just in case". FAA has rolled-over too many times at the managing level. No fear on my level.

What you say never happens happens all the time. The redundancy of aircraft design has made us all very very lucky. It is not about logic.

[NoControllingLegalAuthority]

I'd like to add the real destruction to America is not in high technology outsourcing. There are millions of everyday working people who used to be able to find a decent job with effort and training. There were factories building something in small towns across America. Those factories are disappearing.

Computer programmers have a role in creating the means to track information. There won't be a lot of need to spend money to track information in a third-world America. There is a robust demand for high technology to support a busy, productive nation, not a nation on the economic ropes, as America is becoming.

This is one of the massive flaws in the myth : If manufacturing disappears from America, we can all be programmers.

If manufacturing disappears, who NEEDS programmers?

All you need at that point are computers for tracking unemployment so communists can use the numbers to be comfortably elected by a sea of angry, hopeless voters.

[NCjim]

I'll be leaving now...

I hope that you stick around. What the IT people need to realize (I am one, before anyone throws rocks) is that programming, per se, is a commodity, and like any commodity used in manufacturing, it is purchased from the lowest-priced bidder. Don't kid yourself, programming is just the manufacture of computer programs. The large companies like IBM and AT&T have been hiring contract programming in third-world countries for at least two decades.

Twenty years ago there was talk that in the near future, people would be transformed from employees married to a company to independent contractors. I am surprised that it has taken this long to come to fruition. That future is now. And you who speak of company loyalty, that is a dream, as is employee loyalty. If a company can make money and be loyal, it will. When it comes to a choice between being loyal and being profitable, guess which wins? And employees are no different. You can be loyal to your employer as long as you are paid adequately. But if you come down to a choice of paying the bills or being loyal to your employer, guess which wins? It cuts both ways.

I am constantly surprised by the way that otherwise intelligent people live to the fullest extent that they can afford. And I am talking luxury with a capital 'L' for some. One missed paycheck and they are up the creek. I remember a friend of mine - he and his wife both worked. His wife got a $50/month raise. They racked their brains for two weeks trying to figure what they could buy for $50/month with the money!

This attitude is not limited to IT professionals, by the way. I recall walking into a local brokerage branch office 15 years ago because I wanted to open an account. I was dressed casually as I had taken the day off. I was shocked at the attitude I saw. Here were half a dozen guys in their early twenties, sitting at enormous desks in enormous chairs, with their feet up, smoking cigars, each being overly impressed with themselves. They were doing nothing! I stood in the entrance room in full view of them all. After ten minutes, one put his Wall Street Journal down with an irritated look, and came over to ask what I wanted. I told him that I had come to open an account, but after the first few minutes I had realized that they must have enough accounts and did not want any more business. I was just waiting out of curiosity to see how long it would be before someone came over. I then went elsewhere.

I chose to purchase a moderately-priced house while my co-workers bought mansions. My goal was to pay it off in 15 years, but I took a 30-year mortgage to lock in lower payments in case times got tough. I paid the mortgage, however, at the rate as if it were a 15-year mortgage. I still live in that house, which is paid for, and drive mid-sized American cars while my peers drive BMWs and Mercedes.

To remain employed these days, you have to be marketable. This means not only keeping your skills up (often on your own time) but also developing skills that distinguish you from the competition. Yes, it is difficult. Nobody ever promised me that it would be easy.

I will reiterate what I've said before. Develop your skills and position yourself into having something to offer that few have (very difficult) or into performing some sort of service that cannot be achieved by anyone with a computer anywhere in the world with a telephone line or better. There are still many things that require your physical Presence, but you have to look for them. And you have to have moderate goals that are achievable.

[Pukin Dog]

Back to answer you.

I do not plan on leaving Free Republic; no amount of negativity could accomplish that. I only mean that I will not choose to engage those who feel that when devoid of argument, resort to name calling and hostile comments, as though agreement were a prerequisite for conversation.

At some point, it appears that each post boils down to the same tired rhetoric, where neither side listens to the other. When that occurs, there is no reason to continue posting.

As for your comments, I am in complete agreement with you.

[Destructor]

This is a temporary situation. I remember when the auto manufacturers moved a lot of the manufacturing jobs down to Mexico. The auto makers soon found out that the cheap labor was also below their standards, and as the saying goes "you get what you pay for." Soon the auto manufacturers figured out that Mexico was really only good for cheap assembly.

The same thing will happen here. When the quality of the products begins to decline the big Tech companies will figure out that they're not really saving any money by "outsourcing" those critical Engineer jobs.

[dark_lord]

This issue has been hammered repeatedly over the past 6 months or so. Probably 80% to 90% of FReepers realize there is a serious problem with H-1Bs, L1s, outsourcing, and moving jobs overseas. Assuming that FReepers are a statistical reflection of the conservative (and small L "libertarian") camps, then we can presume this view is held by the Republican base.

Presumably the Republican leadership and the DNC monitor this board. But so far -- the apparent policy has been to ignore this issue. Does anyone on this forum have any kind of inside relationship with the Republican reps and Senators, so as to discuss it with them personally? Because inquiring minds want to know whats up with them ignoring their base on this issue.

[LibertyAndJusticeForAll]

If this was just about a career change from outsourced high-tech to something safer, there would not be so much to scream about.
Our national security is at risk, which is more important than free-trade.
Try to imagine the evil that can be done with just the databases of medical, financial, insurance and telecommunications that now are being built, run and accessed by foreigners in foreign countries.
Try to imagine the evil that can be done if the U.S. no longer has a technological lead in the world.
The semiconductor industry is addressed in this article:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/922087/posts
Here's Phyllis Schafly with some more good info:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/phyllisschlafly/ps20030602.shtml
This issue is not going away.

[GraniteStateConservative]

I think from a previous thread on this subject he said he was a Navy pilot-- on the public dole his whole career.

[NCjim]

I think from a previous thread on this subject he said he was a Navy pilot-- on the public dole his whole career.

For the life of me I do not see how a member of our armed forces, who puts their life on the line for us and our freedoms daily, can in any way be considered to be 'on the public dole'.

[glorgau]

The undercurrent of racism here needs to stop. It's demeaning to conservates and FreeRepublic.

They can't help it. They all live on farms without flush toilets and haven't really met many of the "other" people. :-)

[clamper1797]

I think from a previous thread on this subject he said he was a Navy pilot-- on the public dole his whole career.

Though I would agree that PD has limited private sector experience ... I would disagree that being a Navy Pilot is being on the public dole ... even if he did fly F-14's :<)

[m18436572]

bump

[m18436572]

IBM is aiding and abetting in a non-direct role, under the guise of "IBM Global Services". I have seen their reps come into meetings simply to study the ways to suck jobs through the net, while actually producing...nothing but a bill for their "client".

[dark_lord]

This is a temporary situation. I remember when the auto manufacturers moved a lot of the manufacturing jobs down to Mexico. The auto makers soon found out that the cheap labor was also below their standards, and as the saying goes "you get what you pay for." Soon the auto manufacturers figured out that Mexico was really only good for cheap assembly. The same thing will happen here. When the quality of the products begins to decline the big Tech companies will figure out that they're not really saving any money by "outsourcing" those critical Engineer jobs.

I hope you are right. But I don't hold my breath. The critical difference is that autos are sold as products, and thus are viewed as a source of revenue; but IT is viewed as a cost center, is internal, and there is no outside corrective force when money is wasted. The big automakers respond to outside forces - consumers, magazine articles in trade publications and auto magazines, consumer reports, etc. But where is the "outside force" that will call them on their IT mistakes? Nowhere. Sweep it under the rug and move on.

[GraniteStateConservative]

They don't have to worry about h1b visas. They all have minimum benefits packages. There are other benefits I haven't listed of being on the public dole like he was. If the government signs your paycheck, you're on the public dole. Sorry. We made fun of Clinton for all his years in "government housing" and/or on the public dole in AR.

[GraniteStateConservative]

Those who don't face the realities of private employment are on the public dole. The government signs their checks.

[clamper1797]

An analogy occurred to me. The situation is like two men sitting at opposite ends of a boat thats sinking from one end. The guy at the sinking end yells to the guy on the other side ... help the boat is sinking. I'm trying to bail but one person is not fast enough to keep up with the water ... if you help we can bail the water out of the boat and then fix the leak. The other guy says with his arms folded and nose in the air ... I don't know what's wrong with you ... I'm high and dry ... and I'm not going to help ... you're just a whiner. A few minutes go by and the arrogant ass on the formerlly dry side is starting to get wet ... he says ... OH MY God you're right !!! the boat IS sinking I'll help you now ... response from the other side ... blub blub blub

[WaterDragon]

Who'd even heard of the internet and "IT" 20 years ago? No one was thinking they could make a living in an industry no one ever heard of. What's coming up next, that will grow, boom, attract workers all over the world, get exported, and whose American experts will be at FR on threads like this one lamenting?

[clamper1797]

Forgot one part ...

An analogy occurred to me. The situation is like two men sitting at opposite ends of a boat thats sinking from one end. The guy at the sinking end yells to the guy on the other side ... help the boat is sinking. I'm trying to bail but one person is not fast enough to keep up with the water ... if you help we can bail the water out of the boat and then fix the leak. The other guy says with his arms folded and nose in the air ... I don't know what's wrong with you ... I'm high and dry ... and I'm not going to help ... after all YOU choose to sit on THAT side of the boat ... you're just a whiner. A few minutes go by and the arrogant ass on the formerlly dry side is starting to get wet ... he says ... OH MY God you're right !!! the boat IS sinking I'll help you now ... response from the other side ... blub blub blub