PBS airs "Hitler's Victory," an alternate history with significance to American patriots

[risk]

Hitler's Britain (2 ´ 50'), produced by AAC FACT™, Lark International for PBS and Lion Television, examines one of the most intriguing questions of our time: what would the Nazis have done if they had conquered Britain? Told in two equally compelling parts, Thinking the Unthinkable: The Nazi Occupation of Britain and Churchill's Last Stand: The Secret of the British Resistance, Hitler's Britain will examine the unsettling possibilities of an alternative world order, and the chilling consequences that Hitler's victory would have had on the UK and beyond. Using reconstruction and graphic manipulation, the programme shows how Hitler's plans would have transformed Britain from a gentle, free-spirited country into an unimaginably harsh and repressive regime.

[risk]

The US had a navy, Germany didn't have one to speak of, so we could deploy troops and supplies faster.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that an intact, Allied Britain was an integral part of our effective prosecution of the war in the history that stands. I'm confident that the Russians would have continued to beat the Germans in the East. But I'm not convinced that we would have knocked out Hitler's atomic bomb effort effectively.

[Mr.Clark]

I disagree. The North Africa invasion was not initiated until late 1942, and even that was a tough operation. Read Rick Atkinson's new book to see how close that was to a disaster. Really, the wargame scenario is tough to run, because there are so many variables. However, if Hitler had managed to win the skies over Britain, let's say late 1940, the US would have had a hell of a time getting to Britain and fighting the Wehrmacht successfully. I mean, the biggest German advantage would be the fact that their supplies would be 20 miles away across the Channel, while American supplies would be coming from 3000 miles away. The American army at the time was woefully outmatched by the Germans, they still were in 1942. This is all supposing that FDR would be able to rush a war amendment through, which would not have been a slam dunk.

[Kadric]

I believe that if Hitler managed to take England it would have been Stalin's move. If he signed a peace treaty then Germany may very well have held western Europe. Our best move would have been to launch from the mideast. If USSR did not sign a treaty then we would have had to support USSR with materials and move forces in either along side of them or possibly waited for a weakened Germany in order to invade France from the south. This would depend on kicking the Germans out of north Africa and moving supplies overland across Africa from the Atlantic cost. Once again it would have depended on Stalin tying up German forces on the eastern front instead of reinforcing the Africa Corps.

[Poohbah]

The reason why we'd put troops in Ireland was simple: we were afraid that if Britain fell, so too would her navy.

[Mustang]

Sounds like what the Hildebeast has in store,...if enough of the brain-dead and misinformed nitwits vote for her when she runs in '04, or '08.

My remote is programmed to explode if I punch-up a PBS station or CNN, ...I may have to reconsider and check this out. :-))

Mustang sends from "Malpaso News"

[Black Agnes]

It won't matter who we elect, that's a fait accompli. They're doing it as we speak. Their weapon is the womb.

[risk]

It was so silly I could only watch for about 20-30 minutes.

Heh. I've read PKD's Man in the High Tower, so this idea wasn't totally new to me. The important thing is that some people are now starting to question everything about WWII. It's good to remind people, especially on the left, that they would have been the first to bite the dust if Hitler had won.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

Allied Britain was an integral part of our effective prosecution of the war in the history that stands.

Britain was an important staging area for attacks on Germany itself, and yes they were an integral part of the allied force. That's why we wouldn't have let Hitler conquer Britain, before he established roots there like he did in Europe we would have brought the calvary in, from Iceland and Ireland, even if Roosevelt had to lie us into it. It's all hypothetical, but I think contingency plans had been made for such a possibility.

Btw, great screen name, that's a game I can play forever.

[norton]

Ireland was quite hopeful of Germany at least beating England into a position in which they could not overcome a mauser armed IRA.
(Ulster was different than Ireland then, now, and long into the past.)
At the time WW2 was building up, the 'two largest minorities' in the USA were British and German and then came Italians.
We had a pro-allies neighbor to the north and a generally pro-axis neighbor to the south.
(The one lonely mexican AF contribution to WW2 went to the Pacific - late.)
The US populace did not have just 'many who were anti-war' but virtually half who were pro German. (Kennedy family for one example and there is still debate over Lindberg)

If Hitler had been clearly winning in 1940 we'd very likely have remained much more neutral than your parents told you and likely would have turned to a poorly constructed Fortress America.

The Japanese did Churchill and FDR a great service (regardless of any conspiracy tales out there).

[risk]

Sounds like what the Hildebeast has in store...

Yeah, the most chilling passage was an edit of a speech by (I think) Lord Halifax saying, "We've got to work together with Hitler for the mutual benefit of both countries..." This was taken from one of his appeasement speeches, but was set in post-defeat England and he was to have been instrumental in the transition of governments. So were the police. And so were records of all kinds.

[AveMaria]

>>>we would have had troops in Ireland and Iceland before Hitler could blink, ready to invade.<<<

The government of Ireland at the time was highly nationalistic, and hated Britain for historical injustices inflicted on the Irish.

That explains why Ireland was neutral in WW-2.

[John H K]

However, if Hitler had managed to win the skies over Britain, let's say late 1940, the US would have had a hell of a time getting to Britain and fighting the Wehrmacht successfully.

No matter what, an attempted German invasion would have been a complete disaster. Even IF the Luftwaffe had "won" the Battle of Britain.

The German Navy had been essentially wiped out in the invasion of Norway. They had really terrible, small landing craft. The Royal Navy was based at Scapa Flow and was a long flight for the LW. Once the invasion started, the RN would have been able to make it south and shoot up the landing craft...even if 90% of the RN was wiped out by the LW on the way the remaining 10% would have crushed the landing craft.

Sealion was really a half-assed joke. Britain was never in serious danger of invasion.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

The reason why we'd put troops in Ireland was simple: we were afraid that if Britain fell, so too would her navy.

If Hitler had seized Britain's navy, then the US would have had some problems, another reason why I don't think we would have let it happen.

[risk]

Sealion was really a half-assed joke. Britain was never in serious danger of invasion.

That's easy to say in hindsight. But that's not the point of alternate history fiction, or this sort of experimental documentary. There's much we can learn about the future by thinking about what happened in WWII, or what didn't happen and why.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. --Edmund Burke

[AveMaria]

>>>>The US populace did not have just 'many who were anti-war' but virtually half who were pro German. (Kennedy family for one example and there is still debate over Lindberg)<<<<

That is one ugly aspect of the pre-war American right. There were many rightists who shared the view of Charles Lindberg, that the greatest threat to Western Civilization came from the Soviets and the Orientals (as Asians were then called).

They viewed Hitler's Germany in the same way they viewed Franco's Spain, as allies of the West against the spread of Communism and the so-called "Yellow Peril".

Such rightists would have sought detente with Nazi Germany.

[RaceBannon]

Maybe next they'll do one where George Bush was not elected President in 2000 and (therefore) Al-Qaida conquered Europe and North America.

You left out the second chapter where the military overthrew the dem government, instituted martial law, armed veterans to guard the streets, and then nuked mecca, medina, tehran, damascus, rounded up American Muslims...

[montag813]

Actually, the Harris book about the Nazi's winning was Fatherland, which was a fabulous book

But a rather crappy film adaptation, unfortunately.

[elbucko]

I heard or saw on some show that Churchill would order the deployment of Anthrax...

Yes. I have a "good friend" that was in the RAF at the time. The gas masks issued to the civilian population were, in reality, not intended to protect the British from German mustard gas, as they were told, but to protect them while the Brits gassed the Krauts if they landed on the Island.

Furthermore, the Brits had built oil pipelines into either end of the Channel with the intention of flooding the invasion crossing with petroleum, and lighting it on fire with the German invaders trapped in the oceanic inferno.

In short, the concept of the show is entertaining, but highly unlikely. Winston was not going to let Jerry on his Island.

[beckett]

...so this idea wasn't totally new to me.

The idea is fine and potentially fascinating, which is why I tuned in, but creative vision and production values of this particular program were abysmal.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

Ireland was quite hopeful of Germany at least beating England into a position in which they could not overcome a mauser armed IRA.

The government of Ireland at the time was highly nationalistic, and hated Britain for historical injustices inflicted on the Irish.

Ireland actually supported Germany in the beginning for historical reasons, so I'm not sure if our forces would have been welcomed there initially, but what could they do about it? And most likely we would have gone to Northern Ireland anyway, still in Britain's control. Hitler wouldn't have had time to get in there, his hands would have been too full in Britain.