Pope Warns That War Could Bring 'Religious Catastrophe'

Washington Post ^ | March 30, 2003 | Reuters

[Notwithstanding]

The National Catholic Reporter is as Catholic as Ariana Huffington is Republican.

That paper is NOT Catholic. It is heretical and run by satan himself (pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-serial-marriage, anti-pope, liberal democrat).

[DED]

With the remark about Kosovo, you might be interested in reading the interview with Bill Clinton in the Atlantic Monthly. He suggests several times that Kosovo is the 'model' we should use for Iraq post-war.

[DED]

I'm sorry, the Catholic church has never done anything wrong in the entire history of man! Shame on ME for suggesting otherwise (and I should have recognized that ANYONE who wrote any negative articles about the church in WWII was a leftist (just like Martin Luther).
And seriously, I did NOT intend to attack the Catholic church. I greatly respect it (our son attends a Jesuit college, even though we're not Catholic), but like all institutions, can't be proud of everything it's done.
Now that that's out of the way, do you, or don't you, think the Pope is ignoring the Catholic principals of a "Just War"?
(BTW, I've been on here since the Florida election furor from a different computer, so your newby comments fall kind of flat.)

[editor-surveyor]

"Do you even read the Bible?"

Constantly.

"Have you ever read Isaiah 53:2-3?"

53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

He was speaking of Christ

"I guess Jesus going to Calvary didn't look like one who walks with God, either ... hmm?"

If you will remember, Jesus cried out "my god, why has thou forsaken me?" The Father did indeed have to temporarily forsake him as he carried the sin of the elect. JP II carries nobody's sin but his own.

[editor-surveyor]

"...Bill Clinton in the Atlantic Monthly. He suggests several times that Kosovo is the 'model' we should use for Iraq post-war."

If we did that, then we would have to put Sadam back in power.

[Desdemona]

I'm sorry, the Catholic church has never done anything wrong in the entire history of man! Shame on ME for suggesting otherwise (and I should have recognized that ANYONE who wrote any negative articles about the church in WWII was a leftist (just like Martin Luther).

Martin Luther was concerned about Martin Luther, no one else. The Church has existed since Christ, not the whole history of man. And in matters of Faith, she is infallible. Diplomatic competence has never been a claim.

And seriously, I did NOT intend to attack the Catholic church. I greatly respect it (our son attends a Jesuit college, even though we're not Catholic),

Among the Catholics here, that's not a great recommendation. The Jesuits are barely Catholic as it is anymore. Unless you're talking about Ave Maria College or one or two other little schools, the Jesuits are leftists.

Now that that's out of the way, do you, or don't you, think the Pope is ignoring the Catholic principals of a "Just War"?

Not at all. He's just stating them differntly and emphasizing diplomatic solutions. War is hell. Sherman said it and this pope lived it. This pope has never condemned the war or any side. He just wants peace. Because, truthfully, he knows that this war has the potential to explode into WWIII pretty quickly. That doesn't mean that he approves of Hussien's regime. No sane person could, but he has not condemned the effort. At this point all he asks is a quick and just end to the war and peace to follow. Isn't that what we all want? Even those of us who believe this war to be necessary?

[Salvation]

Why are you Pope bashing?

What the Pope has said has been misconstrued by the lamestream media.

Check out the other thread on the Religion Forum for additional details.

[Notwithstanding]

No, the Pope is not ignoring them. The theory itself notes that there is never certainty as to whether a war is just, since no absolute formual is given - just criteria.

Theories are not dogma, by the way. This theory of a just war - and the fact that it is simply a theory - confirms that no Catholic (popes included) can ever determine if a war is just or not with certainty.

And this pope clearly knows that and that is why he has not made any such statement.

Reasonable people can differ on this issue. That is why Catholics can feel free to disagree with the pope on this issue. I disagree with the pope on this. But I also am grateful to hear his wisdom and counsel on it. He is no fool and the last person Bush (or Reagan) would ever ignore.

=======

In fact, the just war principles need to be re-visited because they do not take new threats into account.

---

What is your other FR screen name? Surely you have no need to hide the name you have posted under at FR since Nov 2000.

[Salvation]

Pope Warns That War Could Bring 'Religious Catastrophe'

[Jorge]

Just get in your Popemobile and go wave. Let us do the real Christian work. Liberating the people of Iraq from a brutal, demonic regime.

For real. I'm already tired of the Pope's pathetic pronouncements on this war.

[DED]

I cannot pretend to know the Jesuits across the board, but those I've met at our son's school have impressed me quite a bit. Have not met any leftist types, and I know last year they organized an anti-abortion group to meet with others in D.C. (Yes, I do know that some of these schools are conservative on abortion yet very liberal on other social issues.)
Anyway, that wasn't my point - my point was that if I didn't respect Catholicism, he wouldn't be going to a Catholic university.

[DED]

You are correct about the principals needing to be reviewed. While terrorism has been with us a very long time, no one could have foreseen 9-11 in 1993, and that, in my opinion, has a great impact on "Just War", as does the concept of a war against people without a nation, a military, or even a specific location.

[Koblenz]

You haven't read your history books. Koblenz is correct; the Vatican's behavior pre-WWII was abbhorent. They played games that would have done Bill Clinton credit. It doesn't discredit the entier Catholic religion - every barrel has some bad apples.

Well, I admittedly didn't know that much about what had happened, but knew there was some agreement with the Pope and the Nazis. But I spent the last half hour or so reading up on it a bit more, and while I'm no expert, I'm a little more informed that I was when I relied solely on the popular press. Yes, there was an agreement between Pius XII and the Nazis, but it was done when Pius was a bishop and before the Nazis had steamrolled their way across Europe. And it appears to me that the Catholics were mainly concerned with preserving the status of their church in Germany. And while the church probably could have done more in some instances, it fought nazism (at least most of the hierarchy did). Keep in mind that the Pope at this time didn't have an army. The book "Hitler's Pope", which was widely acclaimed by the popular press, seems to have some fairly shoddy scholarship. Pius XII actually had a moving eulogy read for him by Golda Mier when he died. And the Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism after the War due to the kind treatment of the Jews afforded by the Catholics. So while I concur that there were some bad apples in the church, I don't think the ones at the top were necessarily bad.

[Salvation]

War in the Gulf -- What the Pope Really Said

[CyberAnt]

Sorry - I'm not Pope bashing. I just think magnifying the differences of religions right now is bad timing!

[Salvation]

War in the Gulf -- What the Pope Really Said

[Pistias]

Worthless is the shepherd who leads his sheep to the slaughter! The only true shepherd is Christ. His earthly respresentative has abdicated his position. He no longer leads the true Church. Only Christ does.

In the habit of speaking to Christ, are you?

[Kevin Curry]

In the habit of speaking to Christ, are you?

John 10:27 " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

[Quix]

WELL SAID.

Was he off base well before he became pope; has he been brainwashed since; or is he an imposter or what?

[Claire Voyant]

The Pope is ONLY infallible in Church Doctrine.