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Word is made flesh as God reveals himself... as a fish
The Observer (U.K.) ^ | 03/16/03 | Edward Helmore

Posted on 03/15/2003 5:11:19 PM PST by Pokey78

An obscure Jewish sect in New York has been gripped in awe by what it believes to be a mystical visitation by a 20lb carp that was heard shouting in Hebrew, in what many Jews worldwide are hailing as a modern miracle.

Many of the 7,000-member Skver sect of Hasidim in New Square, 30 miles north of Manhattan, believe God has revealed himself in fish form.

According to two fish-cutters at the New Square Fish Market, the carp was about to be slaughtered and made into gefilte fish for Sabbath dinner when it suddenly began shouting apocalyptic warnings in Hebrew.

Many believe the carp was channelling the troubled soul of a revered community elder who recently died; others say it was God. The only witnesses to the mystical show were Zalmen Rosen, a 57-year-old Hasid with 11 children, and his co-worker, Luis Nivelo. They say that on 28 January at 4pm they were about to club the carp on the head when it began yelling.

Nivelo, a Gentile who does not understand Hebrew, was so shocked at the sight of a fish talking in any language that he fell over. He ran into the front of the store screaming: 'It's the Devil! The Devil is here!' Then the shop owner heard it shouting warnings and commands too.

'It said "Tzaruch shemirah" and "Hasof bah",' he told the New York Times, 'which essentially means that everyone needs to account for themselves because the end is near.'

The animated carp commanded Rosen to pray and study the Torah. Rosen tried to kill the fish but injured himself. It was finally butchered by Nivelo and sold.

However, word spread far and wide and Nivelo complains he has been plagued by phone calls from as far away as London and Israel. The story has since been amplified by repetition and some now believe the fish's outburst was a warning about the dangers of the impending war in Iraq.

Some say they fear the born-again President Bush believes he is preparing the world for the Second Coming of Christ, and war in Iraq is just the opening salvo in the battle of Armageddon.

Local resident Abraham Spitz said: 'Two men do not dream the same dream. It is very rare that God reminds people he exists in this modern world. But when he does, you cannot ignore it.'

Others in New Square discount the apocalyptic reading altogether and suggest the notion of a talking fish is as fictional as Tony Soprano's talking-fish dream in an episode of The Sopranos .

Stand-up comedians have already incorporated the carp into their comedy routines at weddings. One gefilte company has considered changing it's slogan to: 'Our fish speaks for itself.'

Still, the shouting carp corresponds with the belief of some Hasidic sects that righteous people can be reincarnated as fish. They say that Nivelo may have been selected because he is not Jewish, but a weary Nivelo told the New York Times : 'I wish I never said anything about it. I'm getting so many calls every day, I've stopped answering. Israel, London, Miami, Brooklyn. They all want to hear about the talking fish.'

A devout Christian, he still thinks the carp was the Devil. 'I don't believe any of this Jewish stuff. But I heard that fish talk.'

He's grown tired of the whole thing. 'It's just a big headache for me,' he added. 'I pull my phone out of the wall at night. I don't sleep and I've lost weight.'


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Israel; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: afish; afishnamedbrian; calledgefilte; crevolist; hooklineandsinker
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To: TXnMA
God appears in their midst -- and they butcher Him. Anyone else get a strange sense of deja vu?

Give me a break. Historically not factual, and taking this fish story waaaaay too seriously.

81 posted on 03/16/2003 4:56:56 AM PST by veronica
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To: dighton
Or, more commonly referred to as Pomoxis nigromaculatus
82 posted on 03/16/2003 5:06:26 AM PST by johniegrad
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Comment #83 Removed by Moderator

To: Pokey78
New Square, it should be pointed out, is the only Chasidic enclave that backed the witdh, Hillary.
84 posted on 03/16/2003 7:56:05 AM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: Pokey78
This is wonderful news! Now I can honestly call my fishing trips a pilgrimage.
85 posted on 03/16/2003 8:04:34 AM PST by StriperSniper (Frogs are for gigging)
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To: Pokey78
This story is worth reading just for the halibut.
86 posted on 03/16/2003 8:10:03 AM PST by cowtowney
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Comment #87 Removed by Moderator

To: Pokey78
So many fish tales...so little time.
88 posted on 03/16/2003 9:09:41 AM PST by NautiNurse (There's something very fishy about this story...)
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To: Pokey78
You know something? Reading stuff like this makes me feel like Alex Trebek on the SNL Celebrity Jeopardy sketches.
89 posted on 03/16/2003 9:10:45 AM PST by Live free or die
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To: *crevo_list; PatrickHenry; longshadow; balrog666; Condorman; Sabertooth
20-lb carp sent by God to warn the world. (So they butchered it.)
90 posted on 03/16/2003 9:27:28 AM PST by VadeRetro (Next time, God, try sending "Billy Bass")
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To: VadeRetro
20-lb carp sent by God to warn the world. (So they butchered it.)

Maybe it tried to tell them about the Theory of Evolution - that seems to inspire similar efforts here.

91 posted on 03/16/2003 9:57:15 AM PST by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: balrog666
If it wasn't supernatural, it must have had a fascinating mutation.
92 posted on 03/16/2003 10:07:29 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
An obscure Jewish sect in New York has been gripped in awe by what it believes to be a mystical visitation by a 20lb carp that was heard shouting in Hebrew, in what many Jews worldwide are hailing as a modern miracle.

Many of the 7,000-member Skver sect of Hasidim in New Square, 30 miles north of Manhattan, believe God has revealed himself in fish form.

According to two fish-cutters at the New Square Fish Market, the carp was about to be slaughtered and made into gefilte fish for Sabbath dinner when it suddenly began shouting apocalyptic warnings in Hebrew.

Many believe the carp was channelling the troubled soul of a revered community elder who recently died; others say it was God.

The more things change...


 
 

There is historical evidence that the civilization that emerged in Sumeria less than 7,000 years ago may have been preceded by an older culture.  The first goal of this site is to gather and share information leading to the discovery of the civilization that existed prior to the Sumerians in Mesopotamia wherever that may be on the Earth.  The second goal is to reconcile two schools of thought, the evolutionist and the creationist, in order to better study and understand the origins of this pre-existing civilization.  Both the scientific base of knowledge that has been built in the last 5 centuries, and the historical records found in the histories of many Middle Eastern countries, the Bible and other religious documents can assist in this possible new discovery.

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Introduction

The history of written language began almost 6,000 years ago in the small villages of Mesopotamia. This first written language was called Cuneiform, depicted in the clay tablet above. According to Sumerian history, legend and myth, a man named Oannes introduced this development in the Mesopotamian Valley over 5,000 years ago.  Many assume this character was merely a myth or legend of the Sumerians, other believe that he visited Earth from an extraterrestrial source, even others believe that he originated in the mythical Atlantis.  It is my opinion that, in order to further the goals of this site, this man best be considered as a traveler from a pre- existing civilization somewhere on Earth.

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This site is dedicated to the study of ancient cities and discovery of the civilization preceding the Sumerians in Mesopotamia.  According to legend, Oannes was a "fish man" who emerged from the sea in a fish skin and taught the Sumerians "letters, arts and sciences".  The art of writing, cuneiform, was developed during this period and became the basis for the Aramaic language and later the Arabian alphabet.

"The following descriptions are taken from a history of Mesopotamia written
in the third century BC by Berossus, a Babylonian priest whose work
survives only in fragments recorded by later Greek historians."

*We assume that Berossus is referring to Oannes being temporarily unconscious or disoriented.
 

Our Links:

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Oannes, The Herald of Civilization

Agriculture; Progress or Portent?
 

Other Links:

We have prepared a page of links to informative and interesting sites, please CLICK HERE.

Our Community:  CLICK HERE

HOME



93 posted on 03/16/2003 10:32:36 AM PST by Sabertooth
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To: nevergore
We'll no sense carping about it...the little shrimps won't get it.....It would probably cost me a fin....not to mention, they would probably miss school and clam up.... Of course, I could get them one, just for the Hal-i-but....

Stop, please! You're giving me a splitting haddock! My friend Gil swears this is story true!

94 posted on 03/16/2003 10:41:31 AM PST by ItsOurTimeNow (Peace and quiet...and good, tilled earth.)
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To: Sabertooth
I won't carp or criticize. I'm just going to ask for the halibut, did they eat him? Sautéd, baked, deep-fried? Gefilte?

From my perch, the old and the new stories might just be a couple of whoppers.

95 posted on 03/16/2003 11:11:29 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Pokey78
An obscure Jewish sect in New York...

This crapcarp should place them in an even more obscure place.

96 posted on 03/16/2003 11:19:12 AM PST by verity
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To: VadeRetro
20-lb carp sent by God to warn the world. (So they butchered it.)

Tough neighborhood in which to be a Jehovah's Witness.

97 posted on 03/16/2003 11:32:42 AM PST by PatrickHenry (The universe is made for life, therefore ID. Life can't arise naturally, therefore ID.)
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To: mhking; SamAdams76; TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
Animated version of Billy Bass.

(NOT for those who may be offended by crude, vulgar humor)

98 posted on 03/16/2003 1:08:45 PM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Pokey78
Still, the shouting carp corresponds with the belief of some Hasidic sects that righteous people can be reincarnated as fish.

This is a reward for being righteous? Wouldn't that be a carpy crappy thing to have happen to you?

99 posted on 03/16/2003 1:19:53 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck
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To: Allan
Bump
100 posted on 03/16/2003 2:24:51 PM PST by Allan
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