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1 posted on 03/10/2003 6:18:35 AM PST by conservativecorner
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To: conservativecorner
D-Day redux?

We did it twice, and we'll do it again.

2 posted on 03/10/2003 6:24:20 AM PST by Semper Paratus
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To: conservativecorner
An interesting, but tinfoil-laden, analysis. It's hard to believe that they would have this much hubris, or to give themselves and their own counties over to Islam. You'd have to believe that Chirac is a closet Islamist. Either way, though, they are playing a dangerous game.
4 posted on 03/10/2003 6:34:41 AM PST by expatpat
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To: conservativecorner
A pretty wild hypothesis. Under any scenario, the French are nuts. I can't believe Chirac and Schroeder want to exercise this "power" they're looking for in a Muslim dominated Europe. Can their hatred for the US be that great???
5 posted on 03/10/2003 6:35:40 AM PST by Paraclete
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To: conservativecorner
Not only Radio Free France, but how about another regime change in France (like 1944)?

Semper Fi,
6 posted on 03/10/2003 6:37:40 AM PST by 2nd Bn, 11th Mar
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To: conservativecorner
Clearly there is the undercurrent within Europe that Franco german cooperation should dominate the world. I am not certain that the decisions for policies that further this end is totally calculated rather it is more like an underlying theme. The vast majority of other nations supporting the USA in this including Poland, Hungary and the other former East bloc states makes total sense in the light they are using support of the USA to counterweight the local bullies of France and Germany who would view them as potential economic colonies.
7 posted on 03/10/2003 6:37:46 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: MadIvan
FYI
9 posted on 03/10/2003 6:41:09 AM PST by Happygal
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To: conservativecorner
It sounds fanciful, to be sure. But the smartest people I know have been thoroughly astonished at recent French and German behavior. This theory may help understand what's going on.

An intriguing theory, to be sure.

For a possible alternative explanation (not necessarily mutually exclusive), see post #23 in this FreeRepublic thread.

10 posted on 03/10/2003 6:41:16 AM PST by tictoc
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To: conservativecorner
Intellectuals should never try to figure out the motives of stupid people. There is no plan, a plan would require forethought, something which has always escaped the French. One can only surmise that the Germans caught stupid from their repeated exposure to it by spending too much time in the infected country.
12 posted on 03/10/2003 6:46:40 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (RW&B)
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To: conservativecorner
"It sounds fanciful, to be sure"

It sounds driven by pettiness and envy.......It sounds FRENCH!

15 posted on 03/10/2003 6:48:01 AM PST by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: conservativecorner
A large percent of europeans are perfectly content to have a government (any government will do) tell them what to do and how, when, and where to do it.
They get nice vacations, free medical, and their police carry automatic weapons.
They do not want to suffer the vagaries of democracy, the uncertainty of change, or the risks of action.
It's nice to know that your airplanes are subsidized, your farm goods are protected from new-world genetics, your politicians will cut a deal with any dictator with something to market, and even your language is protected by law.
Any wonder that they still fear what the Anglos are likely to do if left to their own devices?
17 posted on 03/10/2003 6:48:46 AM PST by norton
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To: AntiGuv
JR,
Someone else agrees with you that there's something possibly sinister about Franco-German-Russian opposition to us.

I think you and the author are both right and that these countries may have shifted from being allies to being neutral to being enemies in one move.

Islamists with the nuclear might of Pakistan, Russia, France, etc. is a scary proposition. A Clancy novel that writes itself.
21 posted on 03/10/2003 7:01:18 AM PST by GraniteStateConservative
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To: conservativecorner
I sent an e mail to NR in response to that article:

One thing to consider : As we learned at the time of the Millenium Summit in September 2000, there is an alliance between various Third World and European NGOs to "reform" the UN. They wish to turn the UN into a one nation, one vote "global Democracy". To do this, they wish to see the Security Council and the veto abolished by 2008.

The debacle at the UN is being finessed by much of the media-US and international-as proof that the SC (and not the UN itself) is cumbersome, outmoded, and incompetent.

We hear that the French presence on the SC and the veto is a source of pride in France.

Is it just possible , though, that the French government sees the abolition of the SC as a way to strengthen both the UN (thereby hobbling the US) and France? If the debacle at the UN leads to the abolition of the SC, could the Third World see France as its leader or saviour, or at least be grateful for this abolition? Would this lead to the strengthening of France not only in the UN, but in the EU, as French prestige is increased?

Whatever the French gain from an SC seat and the veto might be outweighted by what it would gain if both were abolished.

I anticipate we'll see more and more calls for the abolition of the SC and the veto in the months to come. The media will try to create the impression that abolition of the SC/veto is the 'correct' ,'enlightened' position to hold.

The article publised here at NR called "The Eurabian Alliance" might explain why the French want to destroy the SC, even though they supposedly gain prestige by being on it. The EU wishes to create an EU/Islamic alliance, and the percentage of the Muslim population in France itself is estimated at anywhere from 5-13%. And the EU as a whole is supposed to be 50% Muslim at least by no later than 2100.

By destroying the SC, France gains prestige in the Third World, hurts the US, and placates its Muslim population, all at once.

Name

Address

31 posted on 03/10/2003 7:33:29 AM PST by kaylar
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To: conservativecorner
I prefer the theory that they're afraid of having the evidence of 12 years of arms dealing with Iraq brought to light.

But it really doesn't matter--you're either with us or against us. They've made their position clear. The reason doesn't matter anymore.

36 posted on 03/10/2003 7:43:21 AM PST by 5by5
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To: conservativecorner
On it's own I find this theory far-fetched . . . but let's take a few more steps back and look at it again. What does France, Germany, AND China and Russia have in common? Have they EVER formed any kind of coalition before? I'm sure some historian FReepers can come up with some but I can't think of any.

So . . . why are they united against us now? Are they all trying to protect Saddam? I think not. This fiasco has NEVER been about Saddam.

Ledeen makes an interesting argument but if one buys into his "theory" why would you just stop with throwing France and Germany together into some kind of conspiracy? And long-term strategies as Ledeen proposes are damn difficult to carry out where countries have an ELECTED leadership. Even if ChIRAQ and Schroeder, alone, are plotting such madness, how could they GUARANTEE that the leaders who followed them would carry on their self-defeating programs? They couldn't.

So . . . I ask again, why are France, Germany, China, and Russia feeding from the same trough over the Iraq issue?

When I think about this, after adding China and Russia into the mix, I can NOW buy into Ledeen's theory. Individually, none of them can oppose our military juggernaut and expect to win. Individually, none of them can trump our economic strength. Individually, none of their systems of government can hope to motivate the masses the way our system does where, theoretically, one reaps the rewards from ones own efforts -- France and Germany are so laden down with socialist programs and the resultant taxes that they've become impotent when competing with us and China and Russia with their wacky combination of communistic/free market programs leave their citizens wondering whether the schizophrenic pendulum will land on the totalitarian policies of times past or whether the changes will be allowed to continue regardless of short-term problems. It's this unease that'll eventually lower the maximum-achievable ceilings so much that they'll never be a threat to us -- INDIVIDUALLY.

So . . . France, Germany, Russia, and China. Hmmmmm.

The answer to me is obvious. Ledeen is right . . . but it's no complicated conspiracy and its seeds weren't planted long-ago. World events and the hubris of the back-stabbing, has-been French have given them all, in their own minds anyway, an opportunity to stymie America's power and idealistic ambitions.

Think about it. Why are they so afraid of Democracy taking root in the Middle East? Why are they so afraid of Muslim populations being empowered with the choice of deciding their own destinies? Why are they terrified of ANY kind of change in the Middle East structure?

Who do those Middle Eastern countries who're given even a limited say in their destinies emulate? What country do they emulate? France? Germany? China? Russia? Nope. The good 'ol U.S. of A. Free Arabs love our culture, our freedoms, our wealth, our open forms of expression . . . we're the standard from which Free Arabs measure all things -- even though they hate to admit it.

France, Germany, Russia, and China are terrified that, in today's world of instantaneous news and comminication, their ways of life are about to be swamped by a tsunami of pro-American imitators. They know that once the freedom-horse is out of the barn that they'll never have ABSOLUTE control of their citizenry and customs again.

Simply stated . . . they're jealous and they're terrified of American power and success and they know if they're going to stop the train they'd best do it now because they might never have this kind of chance again.

To prove my point I give you North Korea and Iran. Everyone demanded we take our Iraqi plans to the UN. Yet NO ONE wants the North Korean and Iranian issues brought up at the UN. China is North Korea's major benefactor and Russia suppied Iran with its nuclear capability.

These two situations are tests for us . . . speedbumps to see how we react. And perhaps they're even situations they hope spiral out of control so we'll get bloodied and withdraw our tentacles from around the world.

That's all any of this is. It has nothing to do with Iraq. It's the simple jealousy and fear of four upper-tier countries trying to shackle the world's ONLY 800# GORILLA. I think history has been kind to us again. Washington, Lincoln, FDR, and GW.

France is not our ally . . . they haven't been for a long, long time. Germany is not our ally. China only wants to piggy-back on our economic success until they get financially stable and then they'll be back in our faces. Clinton's Administration helped a lot by selling and/or giving our technology secrets away. Russia is . . . well . . . Russia and one had best always be aware of their habit of shifting allegiances without warning.

I can hear some of you chuckling at this idiot, red-neck, Texas conspiracist, but don't fool yourself . . . these are dangerous times and I, for one, am damn glad GW is at the helm instead of his predecessor. Appeasement got us trapped in this box . . . sheer determination will get us out.

And Great Britain and Australia are the only allies we can count on to watch our backs during good and/or bad times.

65 posted on 03/10/2003 9:30:44 AM PST by geedee
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To: conservativecorner
So the French and the Germans struck a deal with radical Islam and with radical Arabs: You go after the United States, and we'll do everything we can to protect you, and we will do everything we can to weaken the Americans.

I don't think they struck a deal, but they certainly seized upon the opportunity.

I have a theory of my own. The Muslims have infiltrated, and ARE infiltrating, nearly every country in the world.

The French have problems of their own with the Muslims. If the French are having to capitulate to the Muslims, that is THEIR problem, and someday their problems will be even worse. The same with the Germans. The same with the Nordic countries. The same with many other countries.

But while these countries are capitulating to the Muslims, the Muslims are increasing their numbers in these countries. It won't be long before the Muslims have a stronghold in every country, and will have increased their power, and will be able take over from within.

67 posted on 03/10/2003 9:56:07 AM PST by my_pointy_head_is_sharp
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To: conservativecorner
bump
74 posted on 03/10/2003 6:37:53 PM PST by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: All
All I know is the French are up to something very serious. The French are very close to going into the 'Against' column.
80 posted on 03/11/2003 5:42:59 PM PST by Spruce
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