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To: Question_Assumptions
I'm not refering about life, I think that begins at conception. What I am more interested in is when do you receive your soul. Also at conception? I believe it occurs at a later date, coinciding with the ancient idea of quickening. But this is just my belief, nothing more. In all fairness, no matter where you put the date for life, or personhood, or whatever you choose to call it, it will be subjective, I think.
256 posted on 03/11/2003 4:36:48 PM PST by plusone
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To: plusone; Question_Assumptions; jwalsh07; Nebullis; Askel5; RnMomof7; Coleus; Remedy; BibChr; ...
I usually refrain from 'religious based' argument regarding abortion, cloning, embryonic stem cell exploitation. In this case I'll make exception because I believe you are sincere in your offerings.

When does a knitter begin the actually knitting process of a specific work such as a sweater or mittens? Scriptures tell us that God knits you together and science tells us that the process of the specific individual human being starts within minutes of fertilization. Even the earliest structures 'knitted' for the embryo (the yolk sac; the layer of the placenta which forms to the umbilicus and placental barrier, etc.) are incorporated into the later structures of the fetus (as gut and connective tissues). The form and function of the newly conceived individual human life at every age following fertilization are the hallmarks of that individual's body and personhood.

Since I cannot point to a specific moment during the lifetime of the individual begun at fertilization as the advent of the soul, I would defer to the logical position of assuming the knitting process of body and soul (soul to body) begins with first cell division that evidences the newly conceived expressing its life and its effort for survival of the individual at earliest age in the lifetime.

[One more aside, though it may too esoteric for this discussion: it is assumed that the soul is a timeless 'thing' since it continues even after the time-sequestered body decays and returns to constituent atoms, thus the notion of a soul existing before the body is not inconsistent with the knitting process whereby body and soul are joined ... when God creates that soul is and will remain in His purview, but don't assume that the miscarried bodies did not/do not have a soul in God's timing or His creative endeavors. As a Christian, I believe that your soul will exist sans body, but that you will again inhabit a body of God's special creation at some where/when of His choosing. It is entirely within the realm of acceptable belief for me or you to allow God the creative power to produce a body of completeness for even that miscarried embryo/zygote, not unlike the body you will inhabit in some where/when of His choosing, perhaps long after your natural death and dissolution of your current body.]

257 posted on 03/11/2003 6:08:12 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: plusone
How, exactly, do you define "quickening"? It had to do with the detection of movement. Is a heartbeat movement? The division of cells? The movement of chromosomes within a single cell? (All of which can now be detected.)

From what I've read, various historical Catholic and Muslim "ensoulment" theories put the line at between 40 and 120 days. Bear in mind that 40 days is well within the first trimester but well before traditional "quickening", which might not happen until the second trimester.

In short, given that the ancient criteria of quickening was anything but consistent or scientific how do you define it? And why do you think it indicates the entry of a soul into the child?

263 posted on 03/11/2003 9:27:05 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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