Foetuses [Fetuses] 'may be conscious long before abortion limit'

The Daily Telegraph ^ | March 10, 2003 | David Derbyshire

[MadIvan]

Foetuses may develop consciousness long before the legal age limit for abortions, one of Britain's leading brain scientists has said.

Baroness Greenfield, a professor of neurology at Oxford University and the director of the Royal Institution, said there was evidence to suggest the conscious mind could develop before 24 weeks, the upper age where terminations are permitted.

Although she fell short of calling for changes in the abortion laws, she urged doctors and society to be cautious when assuming unborn babies lacked consciousness. "Is the foetus conscious? The answer is yes, but up to a point," she said.

"Given that we can't prove consciousness or not, we should be very cautious about being too gung ho and assuming something is not conscious. We should err on the side of caution."

Last year, a Daily Telegraph straw poll found many neurologists were concerned that foetuses could feel pain in the womb before 24 weeks after conception.

Many believed foetuses should be given anaesthetics during a late abortion, after 20 weeks. Some also believe pain relief should be given for keyhole surgery in the womb.

Abortions are allowed up to 24 weeks in Britain, but are rarely given so late. Around 90 per cent of the 175,000 planned terminations that take place each year in England and Wales are in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Around 1.5 per cent - or 2,600 - take place after the 20th week.

Terminations after 24 weeks are only allowed in exceptional circumstances if, for instance, the mother's life is threatened.

Lady Greenfield is sceptical of philosophers and doctors who argue that consciousness is "switched on" at some point during the brain's development.

She believes instead that there is a sliding scale of consciousness and that it develops gradually as neurons, or brain cells, make more and more connections with each other.

She told the British Fertility Society in London last week that she had serious concerns about foetal consciousness.

"The Home Office has legislation that applies to a mammal and they have now extended it to the octopus, a mollusc, because it can learn," she said. "If a mollusc can be attributed with being sentient, and now has Home Office protection, then my own view is that we should be very cautious after making assumptions."

In 2001 a Medical Research Council expert group said unborn babies might feel pain as early as 20 weeks and almost certainly by 24. They called for more sensitive treatment of very premature babies, who often had to undergo painful procedures like heel pricks and injections.

[hocndoc]

The prenatal human does "breathe" and have periods of waking and sleeping.

As Baroness Greenfield points out, consciousness evolves as more and more neural connections are made.


And, I'd imagine one of the stimuli for waking would be the process of version.

Regardless, consciousness is not necessary for protection of human rights. Otherwise, there would be no crime in killing other sleeping humans.

[MHGinTN]

I just did, K. I particularly note If it seems more horrible to kill a man in his own house than in a field, because a man's house is his place of most secure refuge, it ought surely to be deemed more atrocious to destroy a fetus in the womb before it has come to light." America has lost her way when she fails to heed such clear teaching.

[toenail]

Here's why NOW advocates killing baby girls.

[DontMessWithMyCountry]

He talked about kids growing up in third world poverty, starving to death, etc. Some cultures, they just leave newborns out in the elements to die, because there aren't the resources to support them. He asked me why create life just to let it die, to let it suffer? These are good points he raised,

And, I think he duped you...sucked you in, so to speak. The abortion issue, here, in the US, is not tied to the issues that your associate brought up to sidetrack you. In fact, in the cultures to which he is referring, abortion is a non-issue (as well, obviously is birth control a non-issue for them). And, his own statements support that as fact.

The choice to have an abortion in this country, aside from extraordinary situations, has no rational relationship to the defenses your friend mentioned. The choice for abortion, in our country is generally made as a matter of convenience--not out of need.

[hocndoc]

I believe that Baroness Greenfield is aproponent of anesthesia for the fetus at surgery or termination. Texas's legislature is considering just such a bill, so the information is pertinent to the way we live - it's not just a game of logic and debate.

[AndrewC]

If one were to ague that abortion is wrong because a fetus is self aware and it were later proved that a fetus was not self aware it would severely hinder the argument.

So you are saying if the fetus is "aware" of the process that is no cause against abortion?

Look this is a shorthand logic.

If A then B is a logical statement which says A implies B. Its truth table is

A   B    If A then B
T   T        T
T   F        F
F   T        T
F   F        T

This is argued. 
If (a fetus is aware of the process of abortion) then (abortion is wrong).

You can plainly see that this is the same thing as IF A Then B.
Your argument against this is a logical fallacy called denying the the antecedent.
Here is another example including "your" argument.
An argument(Happens to be true) --- If I am in Phoenix then I am in Arizona.
"Your" argument is equivalent to --- If I am not in Phoenix then I am not in Arizona.

[AndrewC]

See post 146

[Dajjal]

Pro-Life bump

[hoosierskypilot]

I have no idea how these people can sleep at night.

Especially knowing what awaits them in the fires of hell. There is a very special place for them in Judgment.

Prov 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

[Junior]

Why did you find it necessary to translate the word "foetuses" for us?

[MadIvan]

I didn't. Apparently the Mods did.

Regards, Ivan

[glory]

Many believed foetuses should be given anaesthetics during a late abortion, after 20 weeks. Some also believe pain relief should be given for keyhole surgery in the womb. >>

Wow, what moral people--instead of repealing the barbaric procedure, let's give the baby some anesthitic before we lance it's head. (shaking head--sigh)



Terminations after 24 weeks are only allowed in exceptional circumstances if, for instance, the mother's life is threatened. >>

No such a thing. A baby that is close to term can be delivered alive. A mother's health issue is an absolutely bogus excuse given that mother's with serious health conditions who WANT their babies deliver them everyday in that state, alive and healthy. This argument "for the mother's health" is a strawman that needs to be revealed over and over again so people understand precisely the REAL reasons why this procedure is taking place--"mothers" who waited too long to get an early abortion, doctor and mom "make up" an illness, usually "mental stress" and baby gets aborted late term. It's time for doctors to get out of the business of killing.

[glory]

I can understand supporting abortion at the beginning of pregnancy when the unborn child might still be considered "clinically dead" by most standards - no heartbeat, no brain waves>>

Bill, that's a mighty small window still and can't be used legitimately for giving a nod yes to abortion. I'm not sure if you know, but a heartbeat is detectable VERY early on via vaginal ultrasound. We saw my daughter's heart beating when I was about 5 or 6 weeks pregnant--that's only 3-4 weeks after conception and most women who get abortions don't even know they are pregnant by then. BTW, you can HEAR the baby's heartbeat by about 10 weeks via the doppler thingy on the belly.

[glory]

It is quite accepted that babies turn towards their mother's and father's voices when they are born--perhaps you and I can't remember that, but it certainly points towards having some kind of capacity for memory in utero, not to mention conciousness.

[Steve Eisenberg]

Adult human beings, with fullydeveoped brains, are not conscious when asleep

I don't agree. First of all, I often have dreams where I wonder whether I am dreaming. Almost always I conclude in the dream that I am not dreaming--that the dream sequence was real life--but, obviously, I sometimes wake up shortly after and realize I WAS dreaming. This indicates to me consciousness during dreaming and thus sleeping.

Second, it is true that sleep is a low state of consciousness. However, given pain, you quickly arouse to a higher state of consciousness.

Third, how could Hank Kerchief know all this, and how could Dr. Greenfield and the neurologists have missed it?

[maica]

I think it is splitting hairs to say there is no memory until the age of two or three. I think we are using different definitions of consciousness on this thread.

Point - how do children learn to talk before age three?

Point- how does a smoke alarm or a clock alarm awaken a sleeping person, if sleep = unconsciousness = no need for anesthesia or pain medication. Note: it was the ability of a fetus to feel pain that started the discussion on this thread.

[sultan88]

I shudder to think of the pain these babies endure as they are being tortured to death during an abortion!

[Aquinasfan]

A viewing of "The Silent Scream" should be enough to convince the skeptical, that is, if they dare to view the film.

The modern technology of real time ultrasound now reveals the actual responses of a 12 week old fetus to being aborted. As the unborn child attempts to escape the abortionist's suction curette, her motions can be seen to become desperately agitated and her heart rate doubles.

Or "Eclipse of Reason" or "The Hard Truth."

[Gophack]

Doctors, books, etc. recommend that mothers play soothing music to their baby after 20 weeks because they can now hear. With our first baby, my husband talked to her every morning and said "Hello, baby, it's daddy!" When she was born he said the same thing and she turned to the sound of his voice.

[Gophack]

Actually, the baby DOES remember many things, but they are not things that you would remember that you remembered :-)!

For example, crying gets them fed or changed, etc. You probably don't remember crying because you were hungry, but you did.

I know that babies recognize voices from their womb. My children all recognized the voice of their daddy after they were born (but showed no signs of recognizing their uncle, our next door neighbor, etc).