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To: Pharmboy
Even IF "the Jewish authorities who presided over his trial" were to "blame for the death of Christ", those "authorities" and only "those authorities" were responsible. Certainly no one in the 21st century could believe that a group could bear the collective responsibility--and certainly not a group of people born 2,000 years later...! What am I missing???
17 posted on 03/07/2003 11:18:04 PM PST by Savage Beast
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To: Savage Beast
Like white Americans, for instance. No one would believe they should be penalized because years before, other Americans held black people in involuntary servitude.

Yeah, right. Unfortunately, there's stupidity all over, SB.
57 posted on 03/08/2003 3:26:58 AM PST by LibertarianInExile (Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette...It'll help solve the Social Security problem.)
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To: Savage Beast
The following is not meant to evade our responsibility for the Crucifixion in any way, for I pray daily: O my God, I am heartily sorry and beg pardon for all my sins, not so much because these sins bring suffering and hell to me, but because they have crucified my loving Savior Jesus Christ and have offended Thy Infinite Goodness. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.

The personal responsibility that we all share has been beautifully expressed by others in previous posts. However, I am forced to wonder if anyone has consulted their Bible regarding the responsibility of the Jews, esp. the Gospels of St. Mathew and St. John. Maybe parts have been removed from recent printings. It seems strange that no one has mentioned the passages that are of greatest concern to Jews and most pertinent to this discussion.

The first line of the posted article reads: “A prominent Jewish leader on Friday asked actor Mel Gibson to make certain that his new film on the last 12 hours in the life of Christ does not portray the Jews as collectively responsible for the crucifixion.” I believe the Rabbi is probably most concerned about St. Mathew’s account of the Passion, given that Gibson is striving for biblical accuracy. “And Pilate seeing that he prevailed nothing; but that rather a tumult was made; having taken water, washed his hands before the people saying: I am innocent of the blood of this just man: look you to it. And all the people answering, said: His blood be upon us, and upon our children.” (Mat XXVII, 24-5).

Origen comments that “This blasphemous prayer continues to this day, and will continue a protracted curse upon the Jews, and upon their posterity.” St. Jerome makes the same comment. St. Chrysostom remarks, “Behold the insanity of the Jews! Their passion and pertinacious obstinacy will not suffer them to see and understand: they draw down curses upon themselves in these terrible imprecations: his blood be upon us and our children. Still the God of all mercies did not literally comply with their impious prayer. For, of these children he selected some for himself; amongst the rest even Paul, and many thousands who were converted at Jerusalem.

Chapter XIX of St. John’s Gospel must also be very worrisome for the Jews: “Pilate, therefore, saith to him; Speakest thou not to me? Knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and I have the power to release thee? Jesus answered; Thou shouldst not have any power against me, unless it were given thee from above. Therefore, he that hath delivered me to thee, hath the greater sin. And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him. But the Jews cried out, saying; If thou release this man, thou art not Caesar’s friend. For whosoever maketh himself a king, speaketh against Caesar.” (v. 10-12).

Commentary on v. 11: Witham -- “Some expound this of Judas; others, rather of the high priest Caiphas, with the Jewish council; for they could not be ignorant that Jesus was their Messias, having seen the miracles Jesus did, and knowing the predictions of the prophets.” S. Chrys. Hom. Lxxxiii. in Joan.—“Lest any should think, from what our Saviour had said, that Pilate was not in fault, in this place, he here adds, that he that had delivered him up, had the greater sin. God, indeed, had permitted it; but still these instruments of his death were not without fault.” St. Augustine, tract 116 in Joan – “Christ had been delivered into the power of Pilate through envy, and Pilate was about to exercise that power through fear. But though this last motive of fear can never justify anyone, who condemns the innocent, yet still it is much more pardonable than the motive of envy, which was the incentive of the Jewish multitude.”

All quotations and commentary taken from the Douay-Rheims New Testament with Commentary compiled by Rev. Fr. Geo Leo Haydock, 1859.

From these verses it is clear why the Rabbi is concerned about a biblically accurate presentation of the Passion. The Jews invoked responsibility for themselves and their posterity beyond that which we all share, due to our sins. This is the “collective responsibility” that Vatican II suppressed and which the Vatican has labored to erase from the minds of Christians. Understandably, the Jews and the Vatican would prefer that Christians not notice these verses as they contradict the post Vatican II teaching regarding the Jews. I believe this is their real worry, rather than it being an incitement to harm Jews. I fear more for the safety of my Jewish friends (as do they) due to the actions of the Israeli state.
159 posted on 03/09/2003 10:42:46 PM PST by Aestus Veritatis
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