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To: GOPcapitalist
...which was in the middle of my yard.

Nonsense. It was on the edge of your yard but still on my property.

That is simply not true. If we are to hold to this analogy, you came over and crossed into my yard against my wishes for the purpose of exerting force against me in coordination with your dog and, shortly after your arrival, fired a warning shot at my friend when he was walking up the sidewalk.

Again, my dog is on my property and always has been. And I'm nowhere near your property when you fire the first shot. (We can drop this anology any time you want.)

Historically this occurred when Lincoln dispatched warships tasked specifically to fight their way into Fort Sumter in the inevitable event that the confederates refused to let them enter their territory - Charleston harbor. His ships were even instructed to coordinate their attacks with the fort by way of signal flag. And when the first one arrived, the Harriet Lane, it fired on the confederate civilian vessle Nashville.

Nonsense. In his book "Allegiance: Fort Sumter, Charleston, and the Beginning of the Civil War" David Detzer details two attacks by confederate forces prior to that. The first, of course, was the firing on the Star of the West. The second occured on April 4th. The schooner Rhoda A. Shannon was outward bound from Boston to Savannah with a load of ice when she ran into heavy weather off of Hatteras. Lost and unfamiliiar with the waters, Captain Joseph Marts sailed into Charleston harbor. He had a sailor at the masthead raise the Stars and Stripes in the hopes that it would attract a harbor pilot. When none appeared Captain Marts proceeded into the bay. At 2:30 in the afternoon the Rhoda A. Shannon was fired on by the confederate batteries on Morris Island. In spite of the fact that the confederate batteries were clearly firing on a ship flying the American flag, and in spite of the fact that they did hit her, the U.S. garrison on Sumter did not escalate the issue by firing on the confederate batteries attacking the civilian ship. Captain Marts beat a hasty retreat and left Charleston. This occured days before the Harriet Lane ever got close to Charleston and was the second time that the south fired on ships flying the American flag, and in neither case did the U.S. forces answer the fire. The south clearly fired the first shot and had tried to initiate hostilities on two occasions before their third attack directly on Sumter was answered.

Not really. Whereas Gitmo is generally not used to inhibit the entry or exit of foreign vessles from Cuba, Sumter was intended to be used for that purpose by Lincoln.

Gitmo lies across the entrance to the Cuban port of Guantanamo. I can remember being tied up to the dock at the Naval Base and watching Russian freighters sailing up the channel into Guantanamo Bay. The base could block off access to this port very easily but that has never been contemplated. Just like President Lincoln never contemplated using Sumter to close Charleston.

Not true. The Harriet Lane fired on the Nashville outside of Fort Sumter upon its arrival the night before the battle. The Harriet Lane was a northern vessle, thus the North fired the first shot of the war.

Plainly false, as I detailed above. The confederates fired the first shot on not one, but two occasions.

32 posted on 03/09/2003 2:39:21 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
Nonsense. It was on the edge of your yard but still on my property.

Unless you are now claiming that the north owned the entire Atlantic Ocean and all the inlets on it, Fort Sumter sat several hundred miles away from the nearest union territory. It was surrounded by the confederate state of South Carolina. Thus, holding to the analogy, your dog house is in the middle of my yard at a place that you cannot reach without travelling halfway across the facade of my house and then entering my yard.

Again, my dog is on my property and always has been.

And being a threat to my own free enjoyment of my property, which surrounds it entirely on all sides, it is my right to seek its removal. I will happily do so in peace as my first means of doing so and even offer to pay you for the dog house that is sitting in the middle of my yard, but if you refuse all sensible attempts at negotiation and continue to maintain that dog there in hostility to me, I will eventually have to remove it myself.

And I'm nowhere near your property when you fire the first shot.

Not at all, and in fact the opposite is true. You are standing in the middle of my yard a few feet away from the dog house holding the still-smoking shotgun that you just used as a warning shot in the sky to deter my friend from entering my yard with my permission. In your hand is a leash with another dog you seek to add to the dog house to act in hostility with me, and strapped to your belt is a holster containing another weapon for use in the event that you are denied access.

(We can drop this anology any time you want.)

Seeing as you picked it and it has complicated significantly against you since you first introduced it, I think I'll keep it for now.

Nonsense. In his book "Allegiance: Fort Sumter, Charleston, and the Beginning of the Civil War" David Detzer details two attacks by confederate forces prior to that. The first, of course, was the firing on the Star of the West. The second occured on April 4th. The schooner Rhoda A. Shannon was outward bound from Boston to Savannah with a load of ice when she ran into heavy weather off of Hatteras.

Neither incident occurred in the immediate proximity of the war. Thus each may be considered among the multitude of skirmishes and minor actions that occurred around the nation during the secession era. By contrast, the Lane was there specifically to take part in the military relief expedition to Sumter that instigated the bombardment in the first place.

Gitmo lies across the entrance to the Cuban port of Guantanamo. I can remember being tied up to the dock at the Naval Base and watching Russian freighters sailing up the channel into Guantanamo Bay. The base could block off access to this port very easily but that has never been contemplated. Just like President Lincoln never contemplated using Sumter to close Charleston.

To the contrary. He did contemplate using Sumter to inhibit access to Charleston by way of forcing tariff collections there and controlling access by ship. In fact his first ship to arrive on the scene, the Harriet Lane, attempted to inhibit free access by firing on a civilian ship. It would be akin to the U.S. Navy dispatching a support ship to gitmo and, upon its arrival there, using it to control access to the port when the russian freighters you speak of enter.

35 posted on 03/09/2003 6:17:28 PM PST by GOPcapitalist
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