Turkish Parliament Speaker Says Troop Vote Rejected

Reuters ^

[RCW2001]

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey's parliament speaker said on Saturday a motion to allow U.S. troops into the country for a possible war in Iraq had been rejected, a member of parliament told reporters. The issue is crucial to U.S. military plans and Turkey's relations with Washington.

The vote, carried out behind closed doors, ended with 264 votes for and 251 votes against with 19 abstentions -- an apparent slim victory for the government.

But the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) challenged the result on the grounds that the government had not won the 267 votes needed to represent a majority of the 534 lawmakers present in the assembly.

The government must now decide whether to try to present a similar resolution to the assembly again and gather the few votes it needs.

The resolution, which would also have cleared the way for dispatching Turkish troops to Iraq in case of war, had drawn widespread opposition in Turkey.

Fearing the economic and political impact of any conflict on its borders, Ankara had been reluctant to agree to any role in the war. Rejection of Washington's request will however deprive Turkey of U.S. financial support and a say in the future of northern Iraq, where Turkey has key interests.

U.S. ships are currently waiting with supplies off Turkey's Mediterranean coast to unload. For months Ankara and Washington have been working on an agreement which was expected to include some $6 billion in U.S. grants for Turkey and some $24 billion in loan guarantees.

[Robert_Paulson2]

flawlesss summary of the situation.

this has not been a good plan.
maybe the best we could put together based on logistics and our military state of readiness at the time... but we are losing "much face."

[Robert_Paulson2]

They are NOT afraid.
they are muslims. the whacko brand of islam took control of their parliament last election.

[tomahawk]

I agree. The Turks have just sh*t on 50 years of alliance with the U.S. Apparently we are not welcome.

Therefore, we should cease keeping the Turkish economy afloat (we saved them in 2002 from imminent collapse), and cease giving them U.S. weaponry, which they haven't been paying for anyways (having fallen billions of dollars in arrears).

The Turks are shi**ing on themselves more so than us.

[A_Niceguy_in_CA]

I haven't seen any report of the actual number of Turkish Parliament members present.(was 534 was the actual number?)

This vote was done in private behind closed doors and therefore not open to media or public viewing.

A vote scorecard doesn't appear to posted on the Turkish Grand National Assembly website - But I can't translate Turkish to English.

[whadizit]

Correct! Weebles wobble and they ALL FALL DOWN!!

[Turk2]

Your reasoning is flawed. It was the pious Muslins that voted for the motion whereas, the Leftist opposition party was completely against it. The AKP had polled its members and the outcome had been that only 30 MP's would vote against the motion. This result may have been the reason behind the abstanations and the unexpected increase in votes against the motion from the AKP. They just thought the motion would be accepted anyway, since the margin was huge, and wanted to cover their political asses in the future when the US pulled out of Iraq and left us with a mess on our hands in a few years.

You must understand that previous administrations have greatly damaged the credibility of the United States. Nobody trusts the US anymore because all they have done for the last several decades is to engage in a conflict and pull out as soon they have achieved their goals or have lost more people than the press could tolerate. The same thing happened over and over again in Vietnam, Iran, Afghanistan and Iraq to name a few.

[Turk2]

Nobody is afraid of Saddam. QATAR and KUWAIT are not democracies. What their leaders say is what happens. Turkey is a democracy and all decisions have to pass through the relevant democratic institutions. The first vote on this topic was not enough to pass it through the parliament. If the government feels that it must go through, it will try again on Tuesday.

[A_Niceguy_in_CA]

I found this information:

Grand National Assembly of Turkey (Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi) (550 seats)...So I'm assuming 534 were present and 16 didn't even show up to vote along with 19 abstainers who were present but decided not to vote yes or no on the motion before them.

[Chances Are]

Well, ya gotta do the math...

264 (voting for) + 251 (Voting against) + 19 (Abstaining) = 534.

Now, (534/2) + 1 = 268, for an absolute majority.

At least, that's how I see it...

CA...

[A. Pole]

Your reasoning is flawed. It was the pious Muslins that voted for the motion whereas, the Leftist opposition party was completely against it.

People forget that the system established by Ataturk has something important in common with BAATH regimes - a strong secularism. Turkish secularists might be afraid that after the "regime change" in Baghdad, Islamists might become much stronger.

[ARCADIA]

Good; that settles it! No UN, No Turkey. Will someone tell us what are we waiting for now?????????????????????????

This whole administration is on the verge of becoming a worthless historical footnote.

[kcar]

Is it possible that this whole thing is a ruse? I mean, Iraq knows we're coming, and soon - but when precisely? How do you take them by surprise? What if privately we are really in position and ready to strike tomorrow with the new moon - and this is just a theatrical farce to catch the Iraqi's with maximum surprise?
Is this just tin-foil hat speculation?

[A_Niceguy_in_CA]

The NO vote didn't receive an absolute majority either.

The final vote tally itself has been nullified by the Turkish Speaker of the Assembly.

Further debate may be mute, as we may move forward with Plan B after all the Turkish delays.

[sheik yerbouty]

Just don't go back to the head on the Enterprise in order to retrieve your captains' logs!

[X-FID]

You hit the nail right on the head, they have pissed away a lot of support and momentum. Now they have to bail themselves out somehow, they seem clueless, but I hope that is a headfake.

[mars32]

In my mind I have not come up with answers for every problem the next item I am going to mention presents. That is to be in isolation at least militarily from the rest of the world. Take ourselves out of position around the globe, get the troops back home. I say this not out of fear of making enemies, or shame, or any other reason some idiot from the left would use. First and foremost, I'm sick of these other countries and people around the world. Why spend American tax dollars and potentially American lives defending people who either don't want it or feel it's needed. Let the S. Koreans worry about N. Korea or China. Let Turkey and Egypt worry about Syria and Iraq. Let those tools in Europe worry about Russia, China, or each other. The one constant is change, they may feel they don't need us now, but 5, 10, or 30 years from now they may feel differently. That's when we lift up our right hand, extend the middle finger, and show them what we think. If somebody comes after us, we handle it ourselves, and not involve these other countries. Now your saying, Cold Patriot, what about the terrorists? I said at the top that I haven't worked all the kinks out yet. But maybe if we didn't have troops everywhere, and essentially keep our nose clean, maybe potentially they don't come after us. Again, don't take this the wrong way. I support this country 150% in damn near everything. To sound callous but to get to the point, what do I care if N. Korea moves into S. Korea? I'm not going to risk American lives for them, especially now with the way their government and certainly some of their population have acted towards us. I can't get into a long economic/political discussion right now, there may be impacts there we have to take into account. I'm just looking at the issue skin deep, as well as with a little frustration. I'll stop my rant now and post this now.

[Robert_Paulson2]

sorry you feel that way...

looks like we are finished with the discussions though... The turks are in the "against us" column, and to US, the "for" and 'against' columns were all there was. Turkey, France and Germany MAY have tried to create a third, but to MOST americans, there will never be more than two.

I must say that it was nice having you for a friend and ally... even if it was just a dream. Nato is now finished. Good job Russia.

Dreams and illusions die with difficulty. It is very sad, and I can do nothing to change it. You guys are on your own, and I suspect that is what the "majority" of you wanted to begin with. Good luck nation of Turkey and (sad to say) good-bye.

This decision by your nation's leadership is clearly in line with what YOUR people want. They will come to rue the day they danced in the streets over this critical and decisive moment. The damage is irreversible... and for now that makes your people, the majority of them, happy enough to dance.

In retrospect, it is better not to have you at our backs in a firefight, I guess, since your majority does not support the US postion. Turkey is, through NO FAULT of yours personally, no longer a trusted ally in the eyes of Joe Q. Public here in the USA. This was a "pass or fail" test for our relationship, and now it is the end of it. Your people may not want to believe it. Neither did france. You ought to let them know... if they don't already... we are finished. Now it is too late as far as WE are concerned as Americans. Now begin the regrets... and they won't all be American regrets.

I am glad we tried. But in this case, the failure of outcome would have been far better if we had NOT tried... for YOUR sake.

---

I want to thank you personally and A-Turk for your dedicated efforts to inform us regarding the Turkish people and their unique place in the world, their government and their hopes for the future.

I wish you well.

[muawiyah]

Look, there is no "whacko brand of Islam" - there's just Islam. The Turks are no crazier about Islam now than they were 10, 50, 500 years ago.

For folks into religious mysticism, Islam is an item "promised" should Christians prove to be unable to pursue faith within the freedom of thought Christianity respects (to a degree greater than any other religious lineage).

Islam cuts out the freedom and gives you cut and dried standards that can be organized on a spread-sheet. Some Christian sects are almost as legalistic as Islam, but there are certain lines they never cross.

The most dangerous thing you can believe about Islam is that it is anything less than an all-encompassing belief system whose adherents are authorized to kill you for violations thereof!

In short, there are no moderate Moslems! There might well be some moderate people who are Moslems, but their religious beliefs (which are also their cultural and political beliefs) are definitely immoderate!

[Turk2]

I think you are too hastily jumping to conclusions. I suggest you wait till tomorrow to see what the cabinet will decide to do about this mess. The will of the people will always be against a war unless they are faced with very recent direct threat to their wellbeing. There is absolutely no country in the world in which a decision to go to war against Iraq now would be able to pass through a referendum. I have doubts that even in the US, there would be more than 50% of the people that oppose a hostile course of action action against Iraq.

The problem here is not the will of the people at the present moment but rather their collective benefit in the years to come. The general public is usually unable to see what is best for them in the mid and long term especially when it involves a sacrifice in the present time. The general public will always be against a war. It is up to the people holding political powers in the country to make decisions on behalf of the people, so that the lives of those people can be safer and more prosperous eventhough the people may momentarily not value or aggree with the methods employed in achieving that goal. Therefore, no matter how many people are out on the streets singing songs of peace and chanting 'Make Love not War', the government has the responsibility to make the best decision for the general benefit of the people on their behalf and whether they may like it or not for some time. The peace protests in Turkey were the most limited protests held in all of Europe. Only 50,000 marched yesterday even at the wake of the crucial vote in Parliament as opposed to more than a million in many other European cities when there was nothing to draw the crowds to the streets at all.

I suggest that, before you label entire nations as allies or enemies, you respect their democratic institutions and wait until the very last moment until you come to your conclusions. The alliance between the US and Turkey is one based on mutually overlapping goals and ideals and is not something that can be this easily disrupted.

[afraid]

Do you think this could be a fake? Some posts say the vote was behind closed doors.