[laredo44]

To begin with, we are talking about two different acts. I was speaking about common, garden-variety murder, e.g., a robber shoots the cashier. You are speaking of acts committed on behalf of an existing government. I don't consider our capital punishment cases to be murders, though some do -- Europe considers themselves much more "enlightened" in this area. Does the Bible refer to the crusification of Christ as a murder? Was Spartacus murdered? Billy the Kid? Sacco and Vanzetti?

I do not consider that Ted Bundy was murdered. An act by the state taken to punish individuals that violate rules is not the same as the initial violators' acts. I don't consider imprisoning a kidnapper kidnapping, nor fining a thief theft.

All of which leads me back to my original conjecture: no society can permit murder. By murder I mean the capricious, intentional, unilateral act of killing by any member of the society of any other member of the society.

You can call the prohibition of murder a "fact." You can call it a "universal value." You can call it a "belief." But you cannot call it a "preference" for it is incompatible with establishing and maintaining a society. Just as 2+2=5 is incompatible with erecting tall structures.

[r9etb]

You'll recall that when Moses was born, Pharaoh ordered the death of all infant males.

You'll also recall that Herod ordered the death of all boys under 2 when Jesus was born.

Are you going to say that these Murders of the Innocents by "the properly constituted government" is not murder?