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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
It's bad argumentation, and I think it just makes Theists look silly.

Oh, no it's not. Your argument danced around the problem, but can't solve it. That's why your argument is the pluperfect definition of silly. Obviously your libertarianism is far more important to you than your Christianity.

Please, go get yourself a dictionary of philosophy and look up the ought-is problem, also known as the fact-value problem. Take a look at it.

Now, answer me this. If abortion is murder, then you have an obligation to stop it. But if my personal belief is that an embryo is not a human being, and yours is that it is, who is right?

If you believe abortion is murder, and you try to stop a woman from going to an abortion clinic to kill her baby, then you are initiating force against her. If you refuse on the grounds that you personally find abortion wrong, then you are condoning murder.

It's your choice: Ayn Rand or Jesus. And before you call my argument silly again, think through what I just posted. You simply cannot get around this.

The Fact-Value problem has never been solved, and never will. Repeat: the Fact-Value problem has never been solved.

QED.

386 posted on 03/04/2003 7:51:06 AM PST by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
Now, answer me this. If abortion is murder, then you have an obligation to stop it. But if my personal belief is that an embryo is not a human being, and yours is that it is, who is right?

Oh, gee whillikers, that's difficult -- how about, the one of us whose "belief" commensurates with the fact of Medical Science -- that a human embryo is a human being.

In which case, it's not a question of "personal beliefs", but of objective facts.

If it were not an Objective Fact that the human embryo is a human being, then it wouldn't be Murder to kill it. The whole matter of "personal beliefs" on the subject is just a red herring.

The Fact-Value problem has never been solved, and never will. Repeat: the Fact-Value problem has never been solved.

You can repeat it 'till you're blue in the face... that doesn't change the fact that a resolution of the fact-value gap is not even required for the derivation of absolute (unexceptioned) maxims of self-interest.

It is not necessary to solve the Fact-Value Gap to observe that 2 + 2 = 4.
Likewise, it is not necessary to solve the Fact-Value Gap to observe that if I am in a room with four other people, and we all have guns with one bullet each, my odds of survival are greatest if nobody shoots anybody. That is a mathematical truth regardless of the Fact-Value Gap, and it is an absolute mathematical truth.

You don't need that old bat Ayn Rand in your life, believe me...

I've never even read Ayn Rand.
Not a single book or short story.

I have, however, read the Apostle Paul:

And I know a blasphemer who dares to DENY the express teaching of Saint Paul on the rightful authority of Caesar, when I read one.

I'm going to convert you back to Christianity yet, OP.

I'm still hoping that I can convert you to Christianity in the first place.

Because, in case you’re wondering, it would NOT be a moral action for you to blow your neighbor’s head off for viewing a “playboy” magazine or drinking intoxicating liquors to excess, on his own property. And if it would be a private immorality for you to blow your neighbor’s head off for viewing a “playboy” magazine or drinking intoxicating liquors to excess, on his own property – then it is equally immoral for you to hire the State, as a Contract Murderer, to do it for you.

And as long as you set your own love for State-murder above the Law of God, you're not Following Jesus.

I've just read more of of your response. I'm not going to read any more....

Well, you gotta know when to fold 'em...
Know when to walk away; know when to run.

408 posted on 03/04/2003 11:10:29 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are unworthy Servants; We have only done our Duty)
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