EDITORIAL: Our new European friends

Jerusalem Post ^ | Feb. 20, 2003

[1rudeboy]

Please respond. I'm worried. As a resident of Chicago, does the French-Indian War make me British or French? My mom is travelling to Europe this summer, does she need to cancel her American passport and get a Nazi one? Will she need a visa to visit France?

[SJackson]

18 was for you too.

[1rudeboy]

Say, I found a photo of some Lithuanian Nazis for you (on the White House website, no less):

Waiting for President Bush and President Adamkus, old and young Lithuanians hold the American and Lithuanian flags at Rotuse Square in Vilnius, Lithuania, Nov. 23. "You (the Lithuanian people) have known cruel oppression and withstood it. You were held captive by an empire and you outlived it. And because you have paid its cost you know the value of human freedom," said President Bush in his remarks. "Lithuania today is true to its best traditions of democracy and tolerance and religious liberty, and you have earned the respect of my nation and all nations."

[1rudeboy]

Please see the photo I posted above.

[1rudeboy]

Here's a photo of reactionary-fascist Lithuanian "Waffen SS volunteers" maliciously and illegally denying a liberating Soviet T-72 full freedom-of-movement, in an attempt to prevent the establishment of a just and communist worker's paradise in the image of Lenin.

Vilnius, January 14, 1991

[DTA]

Nice pictures, but you conveniently ommited those originating DURING Hitler's Third Reich.

Being separatist in 1989 has nothing to do with being NAZI in 1940-45 and exterminating Jews in Lithuania and Poland. Lithuania provided Volonteers for Hitler.

"Unlike her Estonian and Latvian neighbors though, Lithuania never provided Germany with a National Legion during WWII, although from the very start of the German occupation quite a few volunteers came forward. It is estimated that as many as 50,000 eventually served in German sponsered units during 1941-45.

Should I mention the role of Lithuanian voloteers in lilling Jews during Warszaw ghetto uprising?

Or Lithuanian Schutzmannschaft?

If you do not trust US Department of Justice, here is an original document written by SS-Standartenfuhrer Jager, commander of EINSATZKOMMANDO 3

"...Following the formation of a raiding squad under the command of SS-Obersturmfuhrer Hamman and 8-10 reliable men from the Einsatzkommando the following actions were conducted in cooperation with Lithuanian partisans:

Lithuanians helped Nazis to solve "Jewish Problem" !

It has nothing to do with Soviet occupation.

Thank you for demonstrating how Nazi revisionists operate.

[DTA]

According to Lithuanian sources, Lithuania was not occupied by the Third Reich, it was LIBERATED by the Third reich from the Russians. Lituanians volonteered in droves into Wehrmacht and Schutzmannschaft, Lithuanian Partisans helped Nazi Einsatzcommando in killing Jews and "solving Jewish Question". It requires stretch of imagination to call this an occupation.

Lithuania is not lone example. Majority of Vilnus 10 countries were not occupied by Nazi Gemany in WWII but were ALLIES of Nazi Germany and American ENEMIES. They provided Waffen SS divisions for Hitler and killed AMERICANS in Italy and elsewhere.

If you do not know history, it's good time to start learning.If you know it well, do not try to obfuscate facts on FR, you have no slim chance here.

[DTA]

Sarasmom, thanks for raising important questions. I am very concerned for wellbeing of Israel too. And for that reason I am alarmed by the writing of The Jerusalem Times. Because JT is not Haaretz. It's getting seriuos because misleading Israelis is not the same as misleading Americans. They live 24/7 in clear and present danger.

One thing is to call someone ally, another is to call him friend. With allies, you share common interest, with friends you share much more. You let friends closer than allies. If you are not careful, false friend can you do more harm than false ally.

After WWII, German society was denazified. Societies of Axis coujntries behind Iron Curtain were not. Nazis were useful for Communists, the same way they were useful for CIA

It was enough to be obedient to Communists and no one asked for renouncement of NAiz ideology. Nazi spirit was never exorcised. When Communism collapsed, it came out of the bootle. Skinheads are more active in East Germany than in West Germany.

I find your statement somewhat naive:

If you wish to punish the current people of Europe for the sins of their fathers, feel free.Do not expect the second and third generations of Europe, who are innocent of inflicting that horror, to view you as rational, or accept the unearned accusation of murderous genocidal intent.

You are right, children are not guilty for the crimes of the fathers. But they are guilty if they hide, obfuscate and falsify history. They are guilty of Holocaust revisionism. See the post of 1brave and you will have a graphic example how that works.

Even more troblesome is when American official put the wording ""Our countries understand the dangers posed by tyranny and the special responsibility of democracies to defend our shared values".

If the values of those countries really American values?

If you check offical US documents you will find that those countries do not respect private property. Those countries claim they were victims of Communism, yet they do not want to return property stolen by Communists to the rightful owners.

And many of the rightful owners are AMERICAN citizens. For example, Romanians have made the list of stolen property that is currently enjoyed by Romanian political elite without intent to return it to the righrful owners.

The same can be found in all Vilnus 10 countries.

[1rudeboy]

Cripes, your very first link disputes your own position. And you accuse me of revisionism? LOL

By the way, I'm not a Nazi, I'm Taliban . . . after all, John Walker Lindh volunteered. [derisive laughter]

So please continue, and be sure to include your ethnic background in your next reply, so that I may engage in baseless and illogical ad hominem attacks on your heritage.

[DTA]

I have not attacked you ad hominem. You may attempt to change the subject but you can not change the facts. It was you, not me who chose Lithuania among 10 countries. You could pick any other but you chose Lithuania. It was you who used "pictures do not lie" trick to refute my claim that Vilnus 10 countries share Nazi past. What color photo in front of WH has to do with killing of 123,000 Jews in WWWII Lithuania?

To prove that Lithuania has no Nazi past, perhaps? How we call people who try to erase Nazi past and Nazi crimes?

Too bad there are many documents available online.

You do not dispute facts but attack me instead, and meet facts with cynical tone.

[1rudeboy]

I know it's near the bottom, so you probably didn't read that far, but again this is from your first link in your #26:

It is against the background of this horrific year of Soviet occupation that one can begin to understand the motivation behind the Baltic volunteer movement. Far from being "pro-Nazi", a great majority of these men joined the German armed forces not to assist Germany in her "war of annihilation," but instead to seek actual freedom and sovereignty for their beloved homelands.

It's pathetic when someone undermines their own "argument" in public. Furthermore, does the Bush quote I printed above make him a Nazi-symp? What about the people that voted for him?

You must realize that I could use your own standard to claim that all Russians are communists. The difference, of course, is that I would expect to be ridiculed. Nor would I defend myself by claiming my opponent is guilty of revisionism, and needs to learn more about history. So let's just say you have some catching up to do. You might start by reviewing the logical fallacies of hasty generalization and unrepresentative sample.

[1rudeboy]

Cynical? Please. I'm making fun of you. I chose Lithuania because I'm Lithuanian. I chose you because you called me a Nazi.

[Anticommie]

Polish death camps ?????

Soon we will hear that Poland started WW2 and Nazi Germans were a victims, it is amazing how how some jews are trying to rewrite history and blame for holocaust anybody else but those who are responsible.

"Polish deathcamps" were built by GERMANS on the teritory of occupied Poland. Polish people have no say in this matter, and millions of Poles Jews and other were brutally murdered by GERMANS.

Lets face it, some Germans and some Jews. And remember that Nazis WERE Germans.

[DTA]

Can you clarify why Lithuanians assited Nazi Einsatzkommando in extermination of Lithuanian Jews and solving of Jewish question in Lithuania? Why Lithuanians helped in extermination of Jews in Poland, in Warszaw Ghetto?

Was this part of struggle to liberate Lithuania from Soviets?

What Lithuanian PM had in mind when he said this?

"In a sharply worded speech, Prime Minister Andrius Kubilius said that Lithuanians must come to terms with the major role Lithuanian's played in the Holocaust on Lithuanian soil. This is a far cry from his apologetic speech in Sweden months ago, which was severely criticised both at home and away. Chairman of the Seimas Human Rights Committee Emanuelis Zingeris discussed the new education programme on such crimes and its implementation. Most of the speakers warned of a resurgence in hate and anti-Semitic groups, hinting at the new neo-Nazi party founded by Mindaugas Murza and the anti-Semitic rhetoric of Kaunas Mayor Vytautas Šustauskas."

This digression is keeping us from the main topic, i.e the fact that Axis allies in Eastern Europe, unlike Germany were not denazified and that unrepented Nazi spirit persists there, that those countries do not respect the basic rule of the law (e.g. property laws) and can not be considered as having the same values as United States.

[1rudeboy]

Can you clarify why Lithuanians assited Nazi Einsatzkommando in extermination of Lithuanian Jews and solving of Jewish question in Lithuania?

Apparently, to ensure that future generations of Lithuanians would be maligned as Nazis on conservative websites.

I can't speak for Mr. Kubilius, you'll have to ask him what he had in mind when he made his speech. In principle, I have absolutely no problem with "coming to terms" with what happened during the Holocaust, and during the Soviet occupation that followed. I must add it is customary to present what a person actually said before asking someone else to refute him.

Furthermore, you persist in identifying Lithuania as an Axis "ally." That claim has no historical basis. Lithuania was thrust into the Soviet "sphere of influence" by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. First the Soviets, and later the Germans (after they attacked the Soviet Union) forcibly installed puppet-regimes in the Baltic States. Under no circumstances does that allow one to place a country in the Axis (or Ally, for that matter) column. Even one of your own sources distinguishes this fact here.

Finally, with regard to your "main topic" (I thought the main topic is the piece at the top of this thread), your concern about property rights is well-founded, but there is hardly a single country in all of Europe that is not wrestling with the issue of returning property seized from Jews during WW2. Also, I must point out to you that the existence of skinheads in (West) Germany, France, England, and even the U.S. makes your claim of some sort of amorphous "unrepented Nazi spirit" existing solely in Eastern Europe very doubtful. My personal belief is that economic hardship does make it easier for demagogues to attract followers, but adding a geographic distinction disregards the existence of political parties led by people like Le Pen, Haider, Fortuyn, et. al., just as it diminishes the property-rights argument you are making. In other words, insisting on a geographic distinction neglects the proposition that:

[t]he emergence of a pro-American European bloc calls for new thinking among Israelis and Diaspora Jews, who still largely relate to Eastern and Central Europe with suspicion and resentment, resulting from centuries of anti-Jewish persecution culminating in the Holocaust.

That is the main topic of this thread, and it is directed toward you.