"I personally witnessed a building in Bosnia where the Serbian "orthodox Christian" Nazis--and this is PRECISELY what they were--crammed 1200 men from Srebrenica into what was essentially a large barn, where they were machinegunned to death en masse in a scene right out of WW2."
Oh you witnessed.. A BUILDING. All you heard are "stories" by Muslim propagandists. Perhaps that is a building where Muslims killed Serbs - they had been doing it for years - raiding Serb villages, taking them to prisons and secret prisons, torturing them and killing them.
Also from your post #14:
"They appear instead to have been"..."A smaller group, of approximately 70 individuals, appears to have been taken"
This is just speculation based on no hard evidence.
"until one of the survivors of the Kravica massacres, who had managed to hide under a pile of dead bodies for roughly nine hours, later escaped and told members of the media and international organizations what he had witnessed"
And who is he? Did he have any bullet wounds? Wouldn't a person suffocate hiding under a pile of dead bodies for nine hours, wouldn't they be injured, or suffer crush system and have ruined kidneys...always the mysterious survivor, uninjured, undiscovered by the Serbs for 9 hours, who ups and runs away...I don't buy it.
from your post #16 After 9/11, the US had to come up with some way to genetically classify the remains of the 3000 dead of the Towers, so that they could, as much as possible, be returned to the families. There was already a system for this in place: in Tuzla, where they were hard at work doing the same to the bodies of the Srebrenica dead. We learned from Bosnia.
Yeah, hard at work, and getting next to no where. Why is the forensic evidence and identities kept from the public? Many of those bodies are likely Serbs killed by Naser Oric and his soldiers.
If they are so interested in determining the truth about Srebrenica then why this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/838425/posts?page=162#162 :
In 1997 Mr. Zumach from the German newspaper Tageszeitung writes the following about the files relevant to Srebrenica in "UN tribunal criticizes the French 'total blockade'":
"In the New York central headquarters of the UN, all files relevant to Srebrenica have been classified "secret" for the next 30 - 50 years and are not even available for the tribunal. This decision was taken at the demand of the permanent members of the Security Council, the USA, France and Great Britain, in reference to their protection of the secrecy of government documents."
Joan sez: From your post #14:
"I personally witnessed a building in Bosnia where the Serbian "orthodox Christian" Nazis--and this is PRECISELY what they were--crammed 1200 men from Srebrenica into what was essentially a large barn, where they were machinegunned to death en masse in a scene right out of WW2."
Oh you witnessed.. A BUILDING. All you heard are "stories" by Muslim propagandists. Perhaps that is a building where Muslims killed Serbs - they had been doing it for years - raiding Serb villages, taking them to prisons and secret prisons, torturing them and killing them. >>
AAAAANT. Wrong answer. Source for this information was the ICTY (International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia) personnel in charge of investigating the war crimes associated with the fall of Srebrenica and elsewhere in Bosnia. They investigated some fifteen separate burial sites, three primary, twelve secondary sites (i.e., sites where the dead had been dug up from their first graves and then scattered into smaller secondary graves). There were eight burial sites associated with the murders at Kravica, each containing between one hundred and one hundred twenty bodies. The bullets responsible for the murders of the men in the graves forensically matched the bullets fired into the walls of the aforementioned Agricultural Warehouse. This is scientific fact established by an international team of investigators, including Americans. These were NOT war stories. This happened. They've already convicted a number of the perpetrators, including General Radislav Krstic, the Serb general who served as the Chief of Staff to Mladic at Srebrenica.
As for your saying they were Serbs? Wrong answer again. There are NO documented Srebrenica-type mass killings of Serbs by Muslims substantiated ANYWHERE in Bosnia. There were Bosniac (Bosnian Muslim) "war criminals," yes. They came in two flavors: (1) mass rapists, of whom there are five imprisoned in the Hague. (Every army has war criminals of a type... just ask 1Lt Calley.) (2) Successful Bosniac generals, of whom not a single one has been convicted of any war crime. Nazi Serbs have a bad habit of calling anyone who kicks their a$$ in the field "war criminals." It's kind of like calling someone who is kicking your a$$ in a written debate of FR a "traitor." Same mindset; what they lack in argumentative ability they more than make up for in hateful and mindless vitriol.
Also from your post #14:
"They appear instead to have been"..."A smaller group, of approximately 70 individuals, appears to have been taken"
This is just speculation based on no hard evidence.
Well, no evidence will convince the unconvinceable, the invincibly ignorant, or the Serb nationalist. But the evidence was hard enough that it got Krstic 47 years' imprisonment for his crimes in command at Sreb. "Kill them! Kill them all! Leave none of them alive!" This tape recording of Krstic's voice to the commander at Bratunac was played at his sentencing. I have heard this tape. "You have chosen evil, General Krstic," the judge said as he sent him to a parole-ineligible prison for the rest of his days.
"until one of the survivors of the Kravica massacres, who had managed to hide under a pile of dead bodies for roughly nine hours, later escaped and told members of the media and international organizations what he had witnessed"
And who is he? Did he have any bullet wounds? Wouldn't a person suffocate hiding under a pile of dead bodies for nine hours, wouldn't they be injured, or suffer crush system and have ruined kidneys...always the mysterious survivor, uninjured, undiscovered by the Serbs for 9 hours, who ups and runs away...I don't buy it.
His name: Kasim Mustafic, a soldier of the ABiH who was among the thousand in the warehouse. And yes, he was wounded, but not enough to kill him.
And it is entirely possible to survive under a crushing a thousand bodies. Happened in WW2 all the time; the survivors gave witness at the Holocaust Museum in DC. Mustafic was one of only three (not two, correction) survivors. They testified at the Hague at Krstic's trial.
The following is from the official Dutch report on the Srebrenica massacre, a report which resulted in the resignation of the Dutch prime minister. Mind you, the Dutch would rather have not told the public the truth about Srebrenica since it could, and did, lead to the downfall of their own government and their loss in the elections. But they at least 'fessed up regardless, the ONLY thing they've done right in connection with this abomination. The source is the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation (NIOD) and their website is "194.134.65.21/srebrenica/".
7. The late afternoon of 13 July: executions in the warehouse at Kravica
Later that same afternoon, 13 July 1995, executions were also conducted in the largest of four warehouses (farm sheds) owned by the Agricultural Cooperative in Kravica. Between 1000 and 1500 men had been captured in fields near Sandici. They were brought to Kravica, either by bus or on foot, the distance being approximately one kilometre. A witness recalls seeing around 200 men, stripped to the waist and with their hands in the air, being forced to run in the direction of Kravica.[1] An aerial photograph taken at 14.00 hours that afternoon shows two buses standing in front of the sheds. At around 18.00 hours, when the men were all being held in the warehouse, VRS soldiers threw in hand grenades and opened fire with various weapons, including an anti-tank gun.[2] In the local area it is said that the mass murder in Kravica was unplanned and started quite spontaneously when one of the warehouse doors suddenly swung open.[3]
Supposedly, there was more killing in and around Kravica and Sandici. Even before the murders in the warehouse, some 200 or 300 men were formed up in ranks near Sandici and then mown down with machine guns.[4] At Kravica, it seems that the local population had a hand in the killings. Some victims were mutilated and killed with knives. The bodies were taken to Bratunac or simply dumped in the river that runs alongside the road. One witness states that this all took place on the 14th of July.[5] There were three survivors of the slaughter in the farm sheds at Kravica. One recalls:
‘…all of a sudden there was a lot of shooting in the warehouse, and we didn't know where it was coming from. There were rifles, grenades, bursts of gunfire and it was – it got so dark in the warehouse that we couldn't see anything. People started to scream, to shout, crying for help. And then there would be a lull, and then all of a sudden it would start again. And they kept shooting like that until nightfall in the warehouse.’[6]
Armed guards shot at the men who tried to climb out the windows to escape the massacre. When the shooting stopped, the shed was full of bodies. Another survivor, who was only slightly wounded, reports: ‘I was not even able to touch the floor, the concrete floor of the building (…) After the shooting, I felt a strange kind of heat, warmth, which was actually coming from the blood that covered the concrete floor, and I was stepping on the dead people who were lying around. But there were even people who were still alive, who were only wounded, and as soon as I would step on one, I would hear him cry, moan, because I was trying to move as fast as I could. I could tell that people had been completely disembodied, and I could feel bones of the people that had been hit by those bursts of gunfire or shells, I could feel their ribs crushing. And then I would get up again and continue.’[7]
When this witness climbed out of a window, he was seen by a guard who shot at him. He then pretended to be dead and managed to escape the following morning. The other witness quoted above spent the night under a heap of bodies. The next morning, he watched as the soldiers examined the corpses for signs of life. The few survivors were forced to sing Serbian songs, and were then shot. Once the final victim had been killed, an excavator was driven in to shunt the bodies out of the shed. The asphalt outside was then hosed down with water. In September 1996, it was still possible to find hair, blood, human tissue and traces of explosives on the walls to be used in evidence. Some remnants of bones were discovered near one of the outer walls.[8] Sources:
[1] ABiH Sarajevo. Arnoutovic archive, 13/07/95.
[2] ICTY, (IT-98-33), Judgement, 02/08/01, para. 205, 208.
[3] Confidential interview (65).
[4] Confidential interview (55).
[5] ABiH Sarajevo. Arnoutovic archive, 14/07/95, witness Kasim Mustafic.
[6] ICTY, (IT-98-33), Judgement, 02/08/01, para. 205.
[7] ICTY, (IT-98-33), Judgement, 02/08/01, para. 206[1] ABiH Sarajevo. Arnoutovic archive, 13/07/95.
[8] ICTY, (IT-98-33), OTP Ex. 140, Manning Report, p. 6. ICTY, (IT-98-33), Judgement, 2/08/01, para. 207-8[1] ABiH Sarajevo. Arnoutovic archive, 13/07/95.
from your post #16 After 9/11, the US had to come up with some way to genetically classify the remains of the 3000 dead of the Towers, so that they could, as much as possible, be returned to the families. There was already a system for this in place: in Tuzla, where they were hard at work doing the same to the bodies of the Srebrenica dead. We learned from Bosnia.
Yeah, hard at work, and getting next to no where. Why is the forensic evidence and identities kept from the public? Many of those bodies are likely Serbs killed by Naser Oric and his soldiers.
Why it's taking so long? It's damned hard work and damned slow because we have some 8000 dead men, and only 5400 living blood relatives. And there are only 12 guys on the project, and each set of bones takes one guy three days to classify, from initial puzzle-out to cutting out of genetic sample from femur or humerus to centrifuging the DNA sample to putting it on a slide to getting the results to doing computer analysis to match against known survivor samples.
If the Serbs hadn't been so bloodthirsty the job would be a lot easier. In fact if the Serbs hadn't done it the job would be unnecessary.
As for the results, however, they are NOT kept from the public. The headquarters of the classification effort occupies an office complex on the Juzhnaja Mazhistrala in downtown Tuzla.
Of course, if you aren't the least bit interested in the truth, I suppose it would be a waste of time.
BTW, the Sreb dead had not a single implement on them indicating Serb identity. Not a single crucifix, not a single Serb coin or bill or ID card or paper, not a single Serb flag or button or four-c swastika. OTOH, many carried identification cards matching the name of known missing Muslims; several carried Bosniac currency and Bosniac military accoutriments. They could tell they were massacred, though, because battle casualties are generally not shot in the back of the head at point blank range while their hands and feet are tied up with barbed wire and their eyes blindfolded. It tends to interfere with their shooting if they go into battle dressed like that.
Upshot: every single one of the murdered was a Muslim, plus a smattering (less than a dozen) Croats allied with them (generally Croats who married Muslim women).
If they are so interested in determining the truth about Srebrenica then why this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/838425/posts?page=162#162 :
Yeah, well, Chinese helped rescue American bomber pilots, in WW2. Then tried to shoot them down in Korea in 1950. Loyalties shift, and the Serbs have been sucking on that particular lollypop for years. Changes nothing. They were good guys during WW2, mostly. In 1992 they turned into Nazis. It happens.
In 1997 Mr. Zumach from the German newspaper Tageszeitung writes the following about the files relevant to Srebrenica in "UN tribunal criticizes the French 'total blockade'":
"In the New York central headquarters of the UN, all files relevant to Srebrenica have been classified "secret" for the next 30 - 50 years and are not even available for the tribunal. This decision was taken at the demand of the permanent members of the Security Council, the USA, France and Great Britain, in reference to their protection of the secrecy of government documents."
Because they may contain info that there's a lot the French in particular would like to not reveal.
For purposes of this discussion there's enough on this massacre in public that five minutes with Google should prove to anyone who is willing to consider the evidence.
Not all holocaust deniers are German. Not all holocausts happened in 1940-1945 (although that was of course the worst). But moral culpability for holocaust denial remains the same regardless.