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To: homeagain balkansvet
Your 1500 number is accurate for the total dead, but the 8K is wrong and will be wrong forever. The majority of those deaths were attributed to Oric's brutality courtesy of the M.E Jihad that were attached to his group.

You were there way too late to find out what happened. You, as JAG, theorize to what transpired and can only assume.

The ICTY only pushes their own agenda, who in part are funded by the US. Therefore, they push the US agenda. Why do you assume they are always right and all the ones that are Pro-Serb or one that sides with the Serbs are chocked full of propoganda or lies? It has been clearly shown the past twelve years the lies exhibited and demonstrated by the Muslims and NATO/US.

249 posted on 02/24/2003 9:54:38 PM PST by smokegenerator (www.pedalinpeace.org ---- Serbian Cycling Challenge for the Children of Serbia)
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To: smokegenerator
Your 1500 number is accurate for the total dead, but the 8K is wrong and will be wrong forever. The majority of those deaths were attributed to Oric's brutality courtesy of the M.E Jihad that were attached to his group.

Aaaaaant. Wrong answer. They have identified by name 7028 named dead who were known by Dutchbat to have been in the city at the time the city fell and who haven't been heard from since. ICTY estimates from the sattelite photoes that there were maybe another thousand that they didn't name. Hence the 8000 number. There were certainly 4000 known Sreb dead -- identified by forensics (i.e., pocket litter, known time of death, etc) at the ICMP Tuzla Morgue; there were a large number of mass graves from the Sreb area that haven't been excavated yet because the Tuzla Morgue is now full and they haven't buried the dead there yet.

You were there way too late to find out what happened. You, as JAG, theorize to what transpired and can only assume.

I am not 'assuming' any more than you were--were any of YOU at Srebrenica? But I'm no generator of smoke: what I have is more than war stories; I m quoting evidence presented by the UN, the ICTY, the ICMP, and the Dutch government in their official reports on what happened there.

And as for determining the value of evidence, well, that's what trials are for. And the ICTY has determined what has happened through a trial process, where the main perpetrators, starting (but please God not ending) with Krstic, were confronted with full and formal evidence of what transpired. He was granted hundreds of thousands of dollars for his own defense and a team of lawyers of his choosing to challenge the evidence. They convicted him, for one simple reason: He did it, he was in command. The charging document, you can look it up, is very long and highly detailed.

The ICTY only pushes their own agenda, who in part are funded by the US. Therefore, they push the US agenda.

What is the ICTY's agenda? To bring the perpetrators of war crimes to justice, in accordance with the authorization granted them by the UN Security Council in 1992. (If you think they get together with the Elders of Islam to conspire against the Serb People, knock youself out--if you need to comfort yourselves with lies.)

As for the US agenda? It's this. (Actually since you won't believe ANYTHING I write, since it threatens your entire worldview, I'll tell the LURKERS what the US agenda is.) The US agenda is this: 1) Stop the people of the former Yugoslavia, ALL of them, Croat, Serbs and Bosniacs/Muslims, from killing each other and once stopped, keep it from resuming. 2) Creating some semblance of order in Bosnia and Kosovo so that people can live their lives. 3) Bring the perpetrators of the major crimes that happened during the war to justice. #3 is necessary in order to maintain #1. You think it's some vast conspiracy to screw Serbia? Hell no. We never wanted to go into the former Yugoslavia; we got dragged in there by circumstances YOU GUYS created, and pretty much we had to make up our policy as we went along.

As for why we had to jump in to stop the mass killing? This is Europe, dammit; we don't want people to get the impression that you can commit mass atrocities there again: somebody, oh like in Germany, may notice you can commit genocide and get away with it. Can't have that.

Why do you assume they are always right and all the ones that are Pro-Serb or one that sides with the Serbs are chocked full of propoganda or lies? It has been clearly shown the past twelve years the lies exhibited and demonstrated by the Muslims and NATO/US.

Because that's the case. The fact is that you guys HAVE been lying to yourselves massively since the very beginning of the war in Bosnia. Likes like, 'To Arms, Serbs, for the Muslims want to marry all your daughters four per male!' Or 'All the Churches in Gornja Tuzla Have Been Burned by Muslim Terrorists!' (when there haven't been any churches in Gornja Tuzla since the 15th century). Or my favorite: Biljana Plavsic accusing Sarajevo city leaders of feeding Serb children to Sarajevo zoo animals during the siege (the zoo animals in question were all dead at that point). In short, the Serbs practiced classic Big Lie techniques from the beginning of the war to justify what they wanted to do: create an ethnically pure homeland where only Serbs would live, preferably in houses that used to belong to their neighbors. The war was, in short, a combination of land-grab and grab-the-neighbor's-TV-set, with a cover of Nazi propaganda to justify it.

When I have used the term 'Nazi' to describe the Serbs in Bosnia, I have to be careful: I don't believe that all Serbs are or were Nazis. A lot of Serbs were perfectly decent human beings. BUT. Some of them acted like Nazis.

I apply that term to two groups of people: the executioners such as the men of Drina Corps who commited crimes such as Sreb, who acted exactly like SS executioners. I also apply that term to the RS government leadership who used Nazi propaganda techniques to convince Serbs that their neighbors were about to come into their homes and 'marry their daughters' and so on, to whip ignorant locals into ethnic cleansing attacks against their neighbors.

I know that not all Serbs acted that way. Some Serbs acted with decency and humanity toward their opponents and neighbors and many Serbs fought honorably and observed the laws of war. But those who committed the atrocities must be brought to justice. And the fact is that, once you strip away the war propaganda, far more Serbs committed war crimes than anyone else in Bosnia.

As for the Serb regions in Croatia, again, the Serbs had a decent case to make at the start of the war: but they drove out all the Muslims and Croats from those regions, which really ticked off the rest of Croatia. And when Croatia retook control of the areas, huge numbers of Serbs fled. Whether they were 'ethnically cleansed' or whether they left of their own accord is hard to assess: the Croats say 'fled', the Serbs say 'cleansed.' That's why 'ethnic cleansing' as such is not a crime that can be tried in The Hague; it's too he-said-she-said. But war crimes, with bodies and known victims and dates and actors who can often benamed individually, are a different story.

Look, the crimes happened. The ICTY brought some of the perpetrators to justice. If you want to think it was a grand conspiracy, go ahead. It certainly must be more pleasant to pretend than confront ugly reality.

258 posted on 02/25/2003 6:21:43 AM PST by homeagain balkansvet ((the truth hurts, donnit?))
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