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To: Karadjordje
Hey, he's a tough soldier and he kicked Serb a$$. That by definition made him a war criminal. To the Serbs.

I can spot silence a mile away. You will notice that nothing in this description states that they were CIVILIANS. That silence speaks volumes. He was killing soldiers, and he was damned good at it. Just like, oh, what was the name of that guerrilla leader from Bijeljina? The one you Serbs bumped off a couple years back? Mauzer? And don't even STARTED on Arkan's Tigers....

And you calling ME "jihadi boy" is akin to a Nazi calling a Nuremberg prosecutor "Jew." It reflects far more on you than it does on me.

158 posted on 02/23/2003 7:17:03 AM PST by homeagain balkansvet ((setting the record REALLY straight))
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To: homeagain balkansvet
homeagain balkansvet wrote:
"And you calling ME "jihadi boy" is akin to a Nazi calling a Nuremberg prosecutor "Jew." It reflects far more on you than it does on me."

I don't call you "jihadi boy" - I call you SS Dshihad Mudshahedin warrior:

"The intention for the raising of a division containing Bosnian Muslims was put originally put forward in 1942 but it was not until the the spring of 1943 that the division was eventually raised. Himmler was quite eager to raise this division, although it went against his beliefs on racial purity. His reasons were twofold. Firstly he believed that the Muslim religion was a useful tool in motivating these men as it preached the virtues dying in a holy war (Jihad) and other  useful teachings.
    Religion was an important motivational tool to this Division so thought Himmler and allowed each battalion to have an Iman and each company had a Mullah. Books were produced encouraging their religion and were distributed throughout its ranks. It was even reported that Hitler sent each member of the division a pendant with a miniature Koran attached to it. However it's formation was met with some opposition from the Croats who were wary of boosting Muslim separatism and recruiting for the German Army in their country. They eventually agreed but continued to put up some opposition to the raising of the division especially when it was discovered that the Germans were using the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem as a tool in their recruiting drive.
    Recruits came from a number of sources including Volksdeutsche and Muslim deserters from the Croatian Army and Ustache units. A number of Bosnian Catholics were allowed to join up as well but only made up a small number of the divisions recruits. Not all recruits were from Croatia though with the signals battalion being entirely made up of Germans. Later when it was discovered that the numbers needed to fill out the ranks would not be met conscription was introduced.
    They were organized along the lines of Moslem units which had served in the Imperial Austro-Hungarian Army with the cadre for this division originally intended to come from the 7th SS Prinz Eugen Division but this was not possible as the training grounds in the locality were full so the division was sent back firstly to Germany and then to France for training. They were in training from July '43 to February '44 but problems soon began to emerge.  Their German training officers did not share Himmler's enthusiasm at the prospect of Muslims as part of the Waffen SS. They despaired at the sight of the men kneeling down on their prayer mats facing Mecca, praying to Allah and constantly made their feelings known in no uncertain terms. Referring to them as "Mujos" and behaving in an overbearing and condescending manner. This led to friction between officers and men which culminated in a mutiny in the pioneer battalion during which some German officers were shot out of hand. However this mutiny (known as the Villefranche mutiny) was inspired by 4 members of the division that were Yugoslav Communist partisans who had been planted within the division as a means of disrupting training and recruitment. Three of the main mutineers were captured and shot, along with 11 others. Quite a large number of others who had gone along with the mutiny were sent to either labour gangs working on the Siegfried Line or to concentration camps. One of the main conspirators named Matutinovic who was one of the Catholic recruits escaped and made it to Spain. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a muslim religious leader, who was living in Berlin at the time was sent for to restore order in the division and they were moved to Silesia and later to Bosnia for the completion of their training in mid February.
    Also incorporated into this regiment was the 23rd SS Kama which was made up of Croatian conscripts. Originally it was intended that the 13th SS would provide the officer cadre for this division but due to lack of recruits they themselves were incorporated into the 13th SS Waffen Gebirgs Division. As well as this the 1st Battalion, 28th Regiment of the 13th SS which was composed of ethnic-Albanian Muslims from Kosovo had not been committed to anti-partisan operations but was still in Bosnia. Himmler ordered it to be part of the new 21st Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Skanderbeg.
    The division was now led by Austrian, German and other Volksdeutsche officers and NCOs and the recruits were given special privileges relating to diet and religious observations. All wore modified SS uniforms complete with field-grey fez with SS insignia and began anti-partisan operations in the spring of 1944 from their base in Brcko and took part in several large scale anti-partisan sweeps such as Operations "Maibaum", "Maiglockchen", "Save" "Wegweiser" and "Osterei". As part of 5th SS Mountain Corps they were constantly engaged in anti-partisan warfare until September of that year when it was withdrawn back to Brcko. IT was during this time that the desertion rate of the division reached an all time high with over 2000 deserters reported within the first three weeks of September. Widespread desertions continued until October when it was ordered that most of the Bosnian volunteers be disarmed and pressed into service with labour units. The remnants which also had a sizeable number of Germans were reformed into a regiment, as part of Kampfgruppe Hanke and deployed in Hungary,  south of Budapest, Lake Balatan, and Drava in March 1945. The survivors marched west to avoid capture by the Soviets and were taken prisoner by the British.
    It has been suggested by many sources that the reputation and combat prowess of this division was dubious to say the least. This is debatable for two reasons. Firstly the question of atrocities will always arise in an area where partisan warfare is carried out and tit-for-tat reprisals are common. Atrocities against civilians and innocent parties are inexcusable but are sadly inevitable in guerilla warfare. Acts of brutality were committed by both sides and should be remembered when studying this subject. This may go some way to explaining the reason for the behaviour of this division. One must bear in mind the ethnic situation in Yugoslavia as another factor, with no love being lost between Serbs and Muslim Croats-a situation that came to head in the mid-1990's. A second reason for its suggested dubious combat reputation was its high rate of desertion. This can be put down to Germany's reversals in the face of the Soviets with many of the men from the division (far from being cowards) deciding to return home to protect their families which were constantly threatened by Tito's partisans. A question of loyalty to ones family must surely come before anything else. Naturally there exceptions to every rule and certainly there may well have been an element within the divisions whose actions cannot be excused.
"

http://www.forces70.freeserve.co.uk/Waffen%20SS%20Text+Images/13THSS.htm (<- click)

Karadjordje

186 posted on 02/23/2003 9:03:11 AM PST by Karadjordje
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