Turkey wants northern Iraq

Daily Times ^

[BlackJack]

‘Turkey demands control of Iraq from US’

By Owen Matthews, Sami Kohen and John Barry

ANKARA: Turkey is raising its price for allowing US forces to invade Iraq from its territory. In early negotiations with the United States, Ankara spoke of sending in Turkish troops to set up a “buffer zone” perhaps 15 miles deep along the Iraqi border. This would prevent a flood of Kurdish refugees from northern Iraq, the Turks said.

But now, Newsweek has learned, Turkey is demanding that it send 60,000 to 80,000 of its own troops into northern Iraq to establish “strategic positions” across a “security arc” as much as 140 to 170 miles deep in Iraq. That would take Turkish troops almost halfway to Baghdad. These troops would not be under US command, according to Turkish sources, who say Turkey has agreed only to “coordination” between US and Turkish forces.

Ankara fears the Iraqi Kurds might use Saddam’s fall to declare independence. Kurdish leaders have not yet been told of this new plan, according to Kurdish spokesmen in Washington, who say the Kurds rejected even the earlier notion of a narrow buffer zone. Farhad Barzani, the US representative of the main Kurdish party in Iraq, the KDP, says, “We have told them: American troops will come as liberators. But Turkish troops will be seen as invaders.”

The White House did not respond to requests for comment; officials elsewhere in the administration played down the Turkish demands as bargaining tactics: “We told them flat out, no.” But independent diplomatic sources in Ankara and Washington with knowledge of the US-Turkey talks say that while the precise depth of the “security zone” has still to be agreed, the concept is “pretty much a done deal,” as one observer put it.

These sources add that the main US concern has been that US, not Turkish, troops occupy the northern Iraqi cities of Mosul and Kirkuk, and that Turkish troops merely surround but not enter the heavily Kurdish cities of Erbil and Sulemaniye. To get Turkey’s assent to this, these sources say, the United States had to “cave” on its demand that Turkish troops be under US control.

Two days of tough negotiations in Washington last week failed to settle the other part of Turkey’s price: a multibillion-dollar economic package. Turkish PM Abdullah Gul is now threatening to delay the all-important vote in the Turkish Parliament to allow US deployments in Turkey. Pentagon officials acknowledge frustration at the problems Turkey’s bargaining poses for the US military buildup.

Turkish sources say that when Turkey’s Foreign Minister Yasar Yakis met with President Bush on Friday, the president warned that the United States might open a northern front against Iraq without Turkish participation. But military sources say that would be close to impossible.

“Turkey is playing hardball,” said Michael Amitay of the Washington Kurdish Institute. “But if the US agrees to these Turkish deployments, there is a real risk that the Kurds will start a guerrilla war against the Turkish troops.” —Newsweek

[Voronin]

Just another re-alignment in the 'world (dis)order' since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Lots more to come. Move on now, there's nothing to see...

VRN

[Robert_Paulson2]

I hope I am too turk. Right now to this american... I am not so sure.

Things can go very badly for Turkey.
And that would be a shame.

[Robert_Paulson2]

Your last election damaged our "trust" in your people.

Electing the islamic thugs to majority... doesn't sit well with us... and we wonder how committed your military is to keeping them at bay, now that we are down to the wire. YOU I would trust. NOT your government in Turkey.

To many of us, it appears that Turkey has overplayed it's hand in the Iraq affair. But I am not sure, given the political climate IN Turkey, that they had much of a hand to play, to begin with.
My hope is that liberty and justice will prevail, instead of greed and religious extremism. The USA is going to have to take this on, in one way or another... and Turkey can either get on the wagon, or step aside, or declare themselve no longer our allies... Our preference is that they either join in as a JUNIOR partner and ally, or just sit this out.


This situation has the potential for permanentlly damaging Turkey's relations with the USA. Maybe that is what your religious extremists and MILITARY leaders want... and end to your attachment to the USA.

I think the average person knows that how Turkey treats the USA might also impact its relationships with other nations it counts as allies outside of Nato... like Israel or India.

There are quite a few nations that don't seem to care about that so much about that these days.
But note; we expect that those who are truly our friends will care deeply.

Those otherwise inclined, will not. Either way SADAAM has to go NOW.
You are going to catch a lot of guff if things go sour with Turkey.
It's not personally against you... folks here genuinely appreciate what you have to say... so try not to take it that way.

We shall see what unfolds over the weekend, when perhaps cooler heads will prevail.

[Beck_isright]

FYI, there have also been AP and UPI reports about heavy units offloading off of rail cars in Southeastern Turkey. Our armor. So I take all of this news as bovine scattalogy. The deal would never be made openly, so this is posturing for the cameras.

[carton253]

but even Jews in their domain lived well and with relatively great freedom

Oh, please... that is about as far from the truth as Clinton being a great president.

The Jews under the Ottomans were dhimmis... they did not live well, and they did not, under any circumstance, have relatively great freedom.

[Beck_isright]

"The Jews under the Ottomans were dhimmis... they did not live well, and they did not, under any circumstance, have relatively great freedom."

Maybe not, but they lived better than the Jews did in 1942 Vichy France.

[carton253]

What! That comment makes absolutely no sense.

So, what you are saying to the Jews is this... hey we know that the Ottomans treated you like the living dead, but hey... at least they aren't the Vichy French.

Makes me feel a whole lot better.

The Ottomans treated both Jew and Christian like crap. The Vichy French have nothing to do with it.

[a_Turk]

>>The Jews under the Ottomans were dhimmis... they did not live well, and they did not, under any circumstance, have relatively great freedom.

Err, ahem..

[carton253]

A-Turk... listen... you know the truth about dhimmis as well as I do, and we both know how dhimmis were treated and still are.

So, don't propagandize me... I can match you story for story...

[Beck_isright]

"What! That comment makes absolutely no sense."

It doesn't? Are you one of the victims of the NEA education programs? The Vichy shipped the Jews and minorities en masse to the death camps. The frog citizenry by and large turned a blind eye to this and in some cases, to improve their standing and take over local businesses ratted out the Jews who were trying to mask their identity. I would suggest clicking off the reality tv and reading every now and then. The Jews were isolated in their regions within the Ottoman empire. They were forced to pay higher taxes but food and protection were given to them until World War I when the secret agreements leaked out and they were no longer trusted by the Ottomans. You wanted a comparison, I gave you one. The Vichy frogs killed the Jews. The Ottomans had no mass extermination program. If you don't want to believe it, then you may continue your belief that Monica only took dictation in the Oval Office also.

[carton253]

Okay, I'm going to try this once more.

I am saying that you are comparing apples to oranges.

You seem to think because the Ottomans didn't load them the Jews up on box cars that somehow they were the more benevolent.

And then you say that they were forced to pay higher taxes but food and protection were given....

First of all, that's a huge whitewash of the dhimmi laws were. Protection? Don't make me laugh.

And I did not ask you for a comparison. And you talk about my education.

[a_Turk]

Folks, I hope you don't end up at odds over this.. With the amount of propaganda this has seen over the centuries, I am certain that you will keep talking past each other.

[carton253]

We won't end up at odds...promise.

[Dog Gone]

Reconstituting the Iraqi army. Turkey wants Iraq to be a nation with a single united army. However, the US opposes this idea. It’s clear that the US has promised the Iraqi Kurds that they will be able to retain their own armed forces in a postwar period.

If that is accurate, that would be a huge mistake on our part. Not only would a separate Kurdish army threaten Turkey, it would threaten Iraq. You can't do that in a nation and expect it to hold together.

Imagine if the US had an hispanic army, a black army, an islamic army, and a white separatist army. On the other hand, don't.

[ChemistCat]

You're wrong. You're just wrong.

Compared to European Jews, especially East European, Jews lived well under the Turkish rule. If you want to compare their life to life in contemporary America or Israel today, obviously they didn't live that well, or with much liberty, but compared to other Jews of their time they did, and that's just fact, like it or not. You're picking up on cultural stereotypes and have obviously never studied the matter--I have.

[ChemistCat]

Clinton relied on poll numbers too.

Even they couldn't keep him in power.

We're already IN Turkey, but you probably weren't even aware of that. We've been in Turkey for a long time. It's the numbers and movement that are under negotiation.

[carton253]

No I'm not wrong! No, I'm not just wrong!

No, I'm not picking up cultural stereotypes and I have studied the matter...

[Beck_isright]

The Dhimmi laws were in place throughout all Muslim territories since the time of the prophet. However, I did not say they were "benevolent". I stated that the French treated the Jews worse than the Ottoman's did. It's not a comparison of apples and oranges. The issue is not founded in "religious" history with the Kurds. This is an issue of point blank capitalism vs. communism. The Kurds have for decades been funded first by the old Soviet bloc (primarily to aggravate the Shah in Iran and our NATO partner, Turkey) and now by the Islamic radicals (Yes, that some fun bunch of folks that attacked us on 9-11) via Iran and Syria. I will trust the Turkish nation infinitely more than I ever would any other nation in that region except for Israel. If you are going to argue that the "Kurds" deserve their own nation, you're smoking crack. It would disrupt and destabalize the region to a point where it would be in a continuing state of war. The Turks are sick of this. They want stability in the region. They realize that the total destruction of the Lebanese, Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi regimes must be completed and rapidly. We're one step away from a true World War. If we do not have the nation of Turkey on our side, we could end up losing alot more of my former comrades than we need to. Wake up. Smell the coffee. Someone is going to get screwed in this was. Let's make sure it's the other side and not our friends.

[Beck_isright]

We will not end up at odds. This is a "stimulating" debate. If he defends the frogs though, all bets are off:)