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Pro-War Camp Can't Make the Case That an Attack Is in National Interest <2 B REFUTED...>
Cato Institute ^ | Feb. 14, 2003 | Ted Galen Carpenter

Posted on 02/20/2003 2:27:50 PM PST by AnalogReigns

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This is probably one of the VERY few principled arguments against the Iraq war out there. This guy is NOT a peace-nik, or a Democrat, nor is he pro-French or pro-UN, by any means. Ted Carpenter believes in limited Constitutional government--as much or more than any conservative out there.

I disagree with Ted on the Iraq war, but I'd like to hear other FReepers refutation of his points, before I chime in.

Lets see how sharp we are....

1 posted on 02/20/2003 2:27:50 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns
He is taking a knee jerk libertarian point of view to this issue.His principles are cover for ideologoy, nothing more.Carpenter was also dead set against the Gulf War, as well.

The crux of the matter is that after 9/11, it is a VITAL US national interest to make pre-emptive strikes against terrorists and those who harbour them.This is the new era of asymmetric warfare that finally is being engaged by the US on a offensive basis.This is the new state of affairs and he better get used to it.When those threats are eliminated, then the dogs can be called off.

This is not a difficult thing to grasp, even for libertarians.
2 posted on 02/20/2003 2:34:47 PM PST by habs4ever
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: AnalogReigns
I can't make the case either.. Further, I won't even try.

We shouldn't attack IRAQ for the reasons stated, period.

Now we should make the moral argument for attack.

It is as follows:

1) Saddam made a deal to end the Gulf war and then he broke it. Thus, by any logical standard the war should resume..

2) The second he launched SCUD's at the Jews (who were non-combatants) and torched the Kuait oil fields during his (quick) retreat, he became a war criminal. At that point, imo.. all bets (with regard to the "power given us" under the UN resolution to remove him) were off.

I don't want to be the New Roman Empire and I don't want to base foreign policy on sketchy, arbitrary notions of "preemption"

But this guy has it coming regardless, for the reasons stated above.

It's a just war and we should see it through, but not necessarily for the reasons we have been given.

4 posted on 02/20/2003 2:39:11 PM PST by Jhoffa_ (Jhoffa_X)
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To: AnalogReigns; ppaul; ex-snook; kidd; Snuffington; Inspector Harry Callahan; GeronL; sauropod; ...
I, too, would be interested in a refutation of the author's points.
5 posted on 02/20/2003 2:40:08 PM PST by sheltonmac
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To: AnalogReigns
Nor is it likely that Iraq would pass along chemical or biological weapons to al-Qaida.

Nor is it likely that Iraq would risk its destruction by attempting to assasinate the President of the United St...oooppsss. They DID do that. Likely is not good enough any more after 9/11. Plus we know for a fact Saddam funds terrorism in Israel. Other arab nations also fund terrorists also, but Saddam is the spookiest and has been the most unpredictable.

6 posted on 02/20/2003 2:40:27 PM PST by finnman69 (!)
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To: AnalogReigns
The only circumstance under which Saddam might pass a weapon to al-Qaida is if the United States invades Iraq because he would then have nothing to lose.

Oh I doubt he (Saddam) would even bother sending his weapons to al-Qaida; I think he would launch them himself at the invading US troops or at Israel. As the author said: he would then have nothing to lose.

I read today that Saddam has been sending and hiding his WMDs in friendly neighboring states (Syria). Are we then going to invade Syria?

7 posted on 02/20/2003 2:40:33 PM PST by Cacophonous
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To: AnalogReigns
Democracy had no tradition in Japan, either. Was Douglas MacArthur naive?

The other regimes mentioned (except for North Korea 50 years ago) have not invaded their neighbors and violated the terms of the agreement after the war. Nor have they fomented terrorism to the extend Saddam has (although a case can be made for Sudan).

8 posted on 02/20/2003 2:41:27 PM PST by You Dirty Rats
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To: AnalogReigns
I completely disagree with his conclusion.

The issue is not whether Iraq has cooperated sufficiently with U.N. inspectors or complied with U.N. resolutions.

Yes, it is.

The issue is not even whether Iraq possesses chemical or biological weapons. The only pertinent issue is whether Iraq poses a serious, imminent threat to the United States, thereby justifying pre-emptive war.

Yes, it is the issue. They are NOT supposed to have those weapons. Iraq was supposed to DISARM.

The pro-war camp has utterly failed to make the case that Iraq poses such a threat.

I guess this guy does not pay attention to the news. Saddam doesn't pose a threat??? What a moron.

9 posted on 02/20/2003 2:41:29 PM PST by Feiny
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
Yes. </i<

Must ask the author's question then: how many holy crusades are we in for?

11 posted on 02/20/2003 2:43:20 PM PST by Cacophonous
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To: AnalogReigns
I don't see any mention of the anthrax attack immediately after 9/11, which has Iraq's fingerprints all over it. Or maybe the Cato institute doesn't think that's worth bothering about....
12 posted on 02/20/2003 2:44:14 PM PST by merak
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To: AnalogReigns
It would serve as a recruiting poster for Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida. However much Americans might believe that an attack on Iraq is justified, it would be perceived throughout the Islamic world as aggressive U.S. imperialism.

We heard this prior to invading Afghanistan to remove the most Islamist and extreme of any arab regime on the planet, the Taliban. Where is the condemnation and arab rage on the streets? Hhhmmm... No self respecting Arab is going to miss the very secular Saddam Hussein or his cronies. Saddam's own people want him gone and they WILL be dancing in the streets just like the happy young girls in Afghanistan who now can attend schools without fear of execution.

13 posted on 02/20/2003 2:45:28 PM PST by finnman69 (!)
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To: feinswinesuksass
The issue is not whether Iraq has cooperated sufficiently with U.N. inspectors or complied with U.N. resolutions.

Yes, it is.

Careful here. If we are going to condemn Iraq for violating UN resolutions, we must also condemn Israel. Of course, a true Conservative would have long ago thumbed his nose at the UN and their globalist, unenforcable "sanctions", thereby eliminating that as an excuse.

14 posted on 02/20/2003 2:45:33 PM PST by Cacophonous
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To: finnman69
No self respecting Arab is going to miss the very secular Saddam Hussein or his cronies. Saddam's own people want him gone and they WILL be dancing in the streets just like the happy young girls in Afghanistan who now can attend schools without fear of execution.

This may be true, but I doubt they will embrace a US invading force with open arms either. They have a flaky and fickle history, the Arabs. When the English and Americans landed in North Africa in 1942, and freed it from the French, Arabs cheered the invaders because they thought it was the Nazis. Probably says more about the French than anything else, but it shows how fickle the Arabs can be.

15 posted on 02/20/2003 2:48:42 PM PST by Cacophonous
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To: AnalogReigns
He just frames issues to fit his view. And look at his "issue." What's "imminent?" What's "serious?"

What's "pre-emptive" about it? We've been bombing Iraq since 1998, relating to WMD.

The war/no war dichotomy is misleading. Let me give you three possibilities.

1. Pull out of the region. Saddam gets all he wants, our Kurdish allies get genocided by the returning Iraqi army, etc.

2. Continue the "War of Containment" for lack of another word. Enforce flightzones, maintain forces in the region, continue bombings, ad infinitum. Iraqi people suffer on and on. We keep paying, our "allies" make craven deals and stab us in the back.

3. Finish the war. This was always talked about, but there was no political will, or enough focus, until 9/11.

.

I see often in these articles references to and pleas about "history" and the like. Yet they don't examine the actual history. I suspect he knows it, but omits it because it would not make his essay palatable, and would highlight that he does not discuss the consequences of applying his own postion.

16 posted on 02/20/2003 2:49:30 PM PST by Shermy
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To: AnalogReigns
The previous post of this HERE has some good refutations ( and otherwise characterizable remarks too of course).
17 posted on 02/20/2003 2:51:14 PM PST by mrsmith
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To: All
The harsh reality is that the Middle East has no history of democratic rule

Well there is a problem right there...

Isreal is a democratic nation and quite stable in spite of the genocidal arabs and the villainous United (League of) Nations.

Egypt and Turkey I believe are republican forms of government. The Iranian Student movements are gaining strength against the Fascism instituted by the Carter Administration.

I see no reason to abandon the Middle East to Totalitarianism when better options are available. Even if you have to use force to liberate an oppressed people.

18 posted on 02/20/2003 2:52:33 PM PST by Samurai_Jack
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To: Jhoffa_
Completely agree with your post disputing the need for a democratic history, as well as the points made by finnman69 and You Dirty Rats. No need to repeat those.

I will offer one more point concerning the physical presence of a post-Saddam regime with a significant American military force in the heart of the Middle East bordering Iran and Saudi Arabia.

At best, this is an effective presence to influence other countries and protect pro-American regimes (following the model in Europe and Asia). At worst, this presents the Islamic authoritarian/militant/terrorists with fighting on two fronts (Isreal and Afghanistan/Iraq) and moving the threat to them closer to home with a greater ability to interdict operations against the homefront.

As a member of the armed forces, I would rather be an armed target in the Middle East for our enemies, than allowing those I am sworn to defend remain targets unopposed in the US.

19 posted on 02/20/2003 2:56:11 PM PST by optimistically_conservative (We're approaching the one-year anniversary of Democrats accusing Bush of a "rush" to war.)
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To: optimistically_conservative
At best, this is an effective presence to influence other countries and protect pro-American regimes (following the model in Europe and Asia). At worst, this presents the Islamic authoritarian/militant/terrorists with fighting on two fronts (Isreal and Afghanistan/Iraq) and moving the threat to them closer to home with a greater ability to interdict operations against the homefront.

This is an excellent strategic point. I just wonder what Israel is providing to the US for taking some of the heat off of them.

20 posted on 02/20/2003 2:58:22 PM PST by Cacophonous
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