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To: Alamo-Girl
I don't think they've addressed really Tegmark's critical point. And the 'debate' invitation is a sure sign they're off the scientific reservation. The Biophysical society meeting, the APS meeting, etc. - real scientific meetings - don't have debates.

A state with a coherence lifetime of 10^-5 seconds or longer will surely have a spectroscopic signature. In a protein containing system, which therefore will have low symmetry, transitions from that state will be electric dipole allowed, or observable as resonances using a radiofrequency spectrometer. Neutron scattring should also be observed. Experimental demonstration of a coherent, non-nuclear transition with a linewidth of 10^5 Hz or less would be comparatively simple. Have they done the experiment?

I've read the papers, and IMHO this stuff is nonsense. I will consider changing my mind at the point there is an adequate experimental demonstration of such coherence. People who know some quantum mechanics but are naive about condensed matter can come up with all sorts of wonderful and bizarre effects, all of which are actually dissipated by random molecular motion far faster than they appear, unless you cool down to cryogenic temperatures. The last generation of biophysicists had to put up with something called the Davydov soliton, which actually spawned some hundreds of papers. Same general nonsense, different application. These papers

http://www.public.coe.edu/~jcotting/ss-phy.html

put paid to the soliton quite nicely, but I'd proud to say before I ever read it I'd decided the soliton made no physical sense, based on an understanding of the sorts of dynamics proteins molecules in water undergo. Later papers have indicate the soliton might live a little longer; one in Phys. Rev. B last year suggested 100 ps rather than 1 ps; but there has been no serious experimental support that I'm aware of for the soliton. And science is above all experimental.

Let me give you another analogy; perhaps a better one. If you take two guitars which are exactly in tune, brng them close together, and pluck one, the corresponding string on the other will start to vibrate in resonance with the first, and over a time scale of a second the second string will actually sound and the first will become almost silent. That's resonance, and it's similar to what happens in a quantum system. Now, take both guitars, and put them in a room where you fire off a gun every half second; or (more reasonably) blast 100 dB white noise through a stereo speaker. Will the resonance occur? No, because both are exposed to a far more intense random excitation from the noise. They'll both vibrate stochastically in response to the noise, but they'll cease to talk to each other.

Don't take my word for it, do the experiment, and let me know what happens. Make sure the noise is really loud, though; loud enough to make a single guitar string vibrate on its own.

Unless someone posts something unforseen on the subject, this will be my last word on it. I'm happy to sit back and be vindicated by history.

938 posted on 02/25/2003 12:22:27 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor
Right wing placemarker.
942 posted on 02/25/2003 12:36:24 PM PST by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: Right Wing Professor
Thank you for your post!

The Biophysical society meeting, the APS meeting, etc. - real scientific meetings - don't have debates.

Strange, I would think that face-to-face discussion would help everyone. As I recall, Hawking was recently involved in one such discussion relating to multi-world hypotheses. It could only be described as a debate, considering the various views and number of participants.

Unless someone posts something unforseen on the subject, this will be my last word on it. I'm happy to sit back and be vindicated by history.

Indeed, laboratory experiments are planned in various models and the results will vindicate some of us. In the meantime, I will continue to track progress and be open to the various thought experiments.

943 posted on 02/25/2003 12:44:56 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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