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To: Phaedrus
The crucial aspect of Near Death Experience is that there is no measurable brain activity, none, while there is undeniable and graphic evidence of consciousness.

I have to step aside here because I don't have any facts to refute your statement, but measurments of brain activity are mostly indirect and extremely lacking in detail. I suspect there is activity between the "near death" stage and full consciousness, and remembered dreams are always the ones that occur during awakening.

As for 19th century materialism, what's the point of discussing it. No physical scientist has given it much thought since the 1930s. When you speak of materialism today you mean QM and general relativity, or string theory. Since materialism incorporates nonlocality and all the other weirdnesses of QM, it assumes the possibility of phenomena that previously would have been described as spiritual.

But the difference is that QM phenomena can be studied.

732 posted on 02/20/2003 9:09:45 AM PST by js1138
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To: js1138; betty boop; beckett
But the difference is that QM phenomena can be studied.

It is the implications of QM that are not understood. One is forced, ultimately, to contemplate the intangible. The Western Mind is not accustomed to this (to say the very least) and the common response, even among scientists, is denial.

Numinous experience is, I surmise, quite common among humanity but it is not a socially acceptable topic of conversation. This is due, I believe, to our strong Materialistic bias. Some few, such as bb above, have the courage to share their experience with others. This is where the contemplation of intangibility leads.

Consciousness and will and intent and truth and love are all intangibles. But they are the drivers. And I believe they came first. As you see, I have some evidence for this POV. That POV emerged from the evidence and not the other way around and it did not emerge from wishful thinking.

And do you now see why I earlier quoted Leonard Cohen (thank you, beckett)?

There is a crack
A crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

Not California La La Flaky but "hard" science ...

742 posted on 02/20/2003 10:07:59 AM PST by Phaedrus
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