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The Daily Telegraph ^ | February 15, 2003 | The Daily Telegraph

Posted on 02/14/2003 4:25:43 PM PST by MadIvan

Today, thousands of people will converge on London to join in the Stop the War march. Among them may be readers of this newspaper, whose opposition to Anglo-American intervention in Iraq is based on moral objections, or on concern about the possible consequences for this country.

Such scruples deserve respect. Most of the speakers who will set the tone for this march, though, have rather different motives, chief among them hostility to America. Those who are by no means anti-American, but who disapprove of George W. Bush, may find themselves uncomfortable in the company of those who see America as the fount of all evil. It is to such people, who still have open minds, that the following points are addressed.

• One of the marchers' slogans is: "Not In My Name". What do President Bush and Tony Blair propose to do in our name? They intend to protect the world, and themselves, against the threat of chemical, biological and nuclear attack by Saddam Hussein; to liberate the people of Iraq, who have suffered more under Saddam than anybody else; to overthrow the most dangerous of the regimes that sponsor international terrorism; and to uphold the authority of the United Nations by enforcing the disarmament of Iraq. How many of the marchers disagree with these aims?

• Many people ask: "What has it to do with us?" They may feel that this is America's war, not ours. They are wrong. Iraq threatens everyone, Britain as much as America, with its weapons and the terrorists it sponsors. Saddam's successful defiance of the international community has emboldened other "rogue states", such as North Korea, to menace their neighbours. Tony Blair is right to be wary of following Chamberlain's line when Germany annexed the Sudetenland in 1938 - "How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing."

• Will today's protesters spare a thought for the victims of September 11? At that time, there was a spontaneous wave of support for America that, in Britain, was almost unanimous - with the exception of some of the leaders of today's march. Allied leaders, including those of France and Germany, pledged solidarity with America in the war against terrorism. Saddam's reaction was to exult in the mass slaughter of Americans. Now that Osama bin Laden has openly aligned himself with Saddam, it is hard to ignore Iraqi support for terrorists, including al-Qa'eda. How many protesters can honestly reply "yes" to the question: would I be marching against war today if the attacks on September 11 had been, not on New York and Washington, but on London?

TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; US: District of Columbia; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: appeasementfreaks; blair; bush; cantwegetalong; dontdefendus; giveupchuck; inmynamethen; iraq; saddam; uk; unmouthbreathers; us; usefulidiots; wimpomania
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To: Burkeman1
I propose an active defense coupled with active containment measures. I don't propose invading and occupying entire countries. It was- after all- our continued military presence in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War which spawned the creation of Al Queda.

Al Qaeda was created out of the Afghan war, which had nothing to do with the US presence in Saudi Arabia.

You are speaking the language of appeasement. American troops went into Saudi Arabia to kick Saddam out of Kuwait - a good idea, since he would have been in control of even more oil after the takeover than he was before. If, again, bending over and grabbing your ankles for Saddam appeals to you, please discontinue reading at this point.

In any event, Osama is, quite frankly, a madman. Any pretext would have done to attack a country which has been demonised for a very long time by radical Islamists. There is nothing you can do about it except go after it and kill it.

Communists were more rational because as bad as they were, at least they rarely committed suicide. As Osama said, he and his boys love death as much as we love life.

Clear? Containment won't work on lunatics, and furthermore, they don't exist in one continguous territory like the Communist bloc. Hunt them down and kill them.


21 posted on 02/14/2003 5:28:44 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: MadIvan
Saddam became a "born-again" Islamicist after his Gulf War defeat in 1991. It is a completely cynical move on his part but Saddam's secularism is enduring myth that is still trotted out by those opposed to the war. Saddam has repackaged his repackaged version of Nasserism as Pan-Islamicism.

His links with and support of a number Islamic terror groups are well-documented.
22 posted on 02/14/2003 5:34:04 PM PST by ggekko
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To: MadIvan
AQ has it's roots in the Afghan war to be sure. CIA reports confirm that and recommended the ceasing of aid to such Mujahdeen groups in that conflict. But it was the continued presence of troops in Saudi Arabia that gave the group it's reason for existence and it's mission. AQ's own propaganda mentions time and again such presence. OBL was expelled from Saudi Arabia for his vocal and public disapproval of American or any non Muslem troop presence on "sacred" Saudi soil. That was the true start of AQ.

As for Sadaam taking over Kuwait and Saudi Arabia back in 90-91 I would argue that if that had happened and we did nothing- 9/11 would never have occured. Quite frankly- that war was not a good idea.

Commisars routinely committed suicide in battle against the Germans. Many a communist rebel killed themselves in terrorist bombing attacks in proxy wars.
23 posted on 02/14/2003 5:38:36 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: MadIvan
Once again the "Torygraph" demonstrates why I consider it the best newspaper in the world.
24 posted on 02/14/2003 5:41:35 PM PST by strongbow
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To: ggekko
Yes- it was during the Gulf War that Sadaam first started to appeal to "Islamic" values to stir his population. Since then many a foreign visitor to Iraq has noticed that only a decade ago it was rare to see Iraqi women dressed in traditional Islamic veils- now it is commonplace and growing. This "back to Islam" is coming from below however- not from above. Sadaam's government is reacting to it- not enforcing it. Which should give us a pause for concern.
25 posted on 02/14/2003 5:43:05 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
If we had annexed northern Iraq it would be a US state. It is not.
26 posted on 02/14/2003 5:46:33 PM PST by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge.)
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To: MadIvan
Way to go,Ivan!!! Clear,concise and totally correct. Thank God for English people like you.
27 posted on 02/14/2003 5:53:30 PM PST by clooney4824
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Attack on Iraq Betting Pool
28 posted on 02/14/2003 5:58:03 PM PST by Momaw Nadon
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To: MadIvan
Thank you for posting this. I am so angry I could just spit. I would dearly love to slap Phil Donawho. I am so tired of these "hate America" democrats in this country, and the Socialist in other Countries. I just wonder how in the world these jerks got all the microphones.
29 posted on 02/14/2003 5:59:49 PM PST by Letitring (UN-NO votes-NO money.)
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To: MadIvan
These protestors enjoy the freedom that Islamo-extremists condemn people to death for daring to dream of freedom.
30 posted on 02/14/2003 6:06:30 PM PST by harpo11 (The United Nations is NOT united with America)
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To: Burkeman1
He was expelled from Saudi because he threatened the House of Saud. He found he had a broader audience if he switched that to hate America. Afterall, the Arabs have been telling their citizens how awful we are for decades. Gives them a common enemy to hate, US.
31 posted on 02/14/2003 6:11:10 PM PST by Letitring (UN-NO votes-NO money.)
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To: MadIvan
A UK-based Iraqi condemns the marchers on this thread:

32 posted on 02/14/2003 7:04:39 PM PST by aculeus
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To: MadIvan
Treating the Islamists as a rational enemy is your first mistake.

Well stated, Ivan. Seems to me that many of those who are "marching for peace" would like to believe that Saddam or Osama bin Laden were raised as good boys with an upbringing much like that of the United States before their psychological problems began and they became evil leaders. They probably keep a copy of the book "I'm Okay, You're Okay" at their bedsides.

33 posted on 02/14/2003 7:17:50 PM PST by arasina
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To: Burkeman1
Just as Marxist civilization was doomed so to is Islamic. It is an ossified and doomed culture in it's death throws. Let them wither on their own.

Yes, it is doomed, but there are very major differences. The Marxists did not want to die. That is why containment and fear of retaliation worked with them.

These fanatics do want to die. And they want to take as many of us with them as they can. Neither containment nor threats of retaliation will work with them.

Take a look at what Isreal is going through.


34 posted on 02/14/2003 7:27:00 PM PST by Becki
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To: Burkeman1
I propose an active defense coupled with active containment measures. I don't propose invading and occupying entire countries. It was- after all- our continued military presence in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War which spawned the creation of Al Queda.

Untrue! Bin Laden is known to have despised Americans since long before the Gulf War- as early as 1979. Al Qaeda was created in 1989, well before the Gulf War and our basing in Saudi Arabia. Its precursor, which was founded by Azzam and funded by bin Laden and which was intensely hateful of the US, was al Kifah and began even earlier, and was building up right under Reagan's nose, in countries around the world and in the US. Indeed, it could be said to have been based here. The idea that "our military presence in Saudi Arabia" is what set him off is simplistic and totally untrue. It's just one of his reasons; what he really hates, and what most pan-Arabists whether secular or Islamic hate, is the spread of western culture, which of course is seen as a threat to Arab Islamic culture. We cannot simply "turn off" our culture's impact on the rest of the world, because there are so many nonextremists worldwide who actually like what we have to offer and since they will keep importing American goods, adopting and mimicking US art, music and culture, someone will always be POed at us.

The bulk of the people worldwide do not hate the US, and that is true even among Arabs. Unfortunately, the ones who do hate us are often trained in our own colleges or those of our allies in the west and are therefore well aware of how to make themselves heard. Bin Laden was educated in a western university. So was the Ayatollah Khomeini. The source of their hatred is not our presence, but rather, the very same source that our friends in the peace movement drew from. Marxist professors. In the Arab world it is blended with national socialism, a leftover from our German friends.

As for Iraq, it was actively seeking nuclear capabiliy even long before the Gulf War, even before the Iran-Iraq war, even before Israel had ever done a thing to Iraq. Iraq obtained uranium from Brazil well before all of this. Yet Iraq claims it seeks nuclear capability to defend itself from Israel, a country which has never had ambitions of empire. The reason Iraq has long sought nuclear capability is because it does have ambitions of empire and such capability would prevent anyone from coming to the defense of any nation Iraq annexed. Iraq has never made a secret of its ambitions to expand its territory.

Here's one of the organizations affiliated with al Qaeda. They have been in existance prior to the Gulf War, so our military presence in Saudi Arabia doesn't have a darn thing to do with it, yet its members have carried out terrorist acts and assasinations here in the United States even before they became a formal organization. They have been active both in the US and in the Caribbean as well as Pakistan since the very early 1980s, and assassinated an Indian diplomat here in the US as well.

1980s : (JAMAAT UL FUQRA FOUNDED BY SHEIKH MABARIK ALI GILANI, FIREBOMBINGS) The annual report on the Patterns of Global Terrorism during 1998 issued by the Counter-Terrorism Division of the US State Department states as follows of the Jamaat-ul-Fuqra: "Seeks to purify Islam through violence. Members have purchased isolated rural compounds in North America to live communally, practise their faith and insulate themselves from Western culture. Fuqra members have attacked a variety of targets that they view as enemies of Islam, including Muslims they regard as heretics and Hindus. Attacks during the 1980s included assassinations and fire bombings across the US. Fuqra members in the US have been convicted of criminal violations, including murder and fraud."

Now here is another interesting event:

1981 : (EGYPT, SADAT ASSASSINATION, RAHMAN) Assassination of Anwar Sadat. Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman was detained by the Egyptian government in connection with this assassination.Though never convicted, he was kept for a time under house arrest in Egypt. - "FBI Wary of Investigating Extremist Muslim Leaders: Agency May Rethink Hesitancy on Religious Figures," By Walter Pincus, Washington Post Staff Writer, Monday, October 29, 2001; Page A04

Shiekh Omar Abdel Rahman's name should ring a bell. He was indeed involved in the assassination of Sadat, all before the Gulf War and before US troops were ever stationed in Saudi Arabia. If he doesn't ring a bell, look up the first bombing of the World Trade Center. That was carried out by the same people who call themselves al Qaeda now, and the job was finished by Osama bin Laden of al Qaeda and Atta of both Al-Qaeda and the Egyptian Islamic Jihad.

Among those involved in the plot in some manner in the Sadat assassination case were 11 university teachers and students. Surprise, surprise. No American occupation of anything was necessary for these people to form a terrorist group. Yet Rahman and Osama were not strangers even before we Americans came tripping along...

1980s : (AFGHANISTAN, BIN LADEN, RAHMAN) Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman met Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. . - "FBI Wary of Investigating Extremist Muslim Leaders: Agency May Rethink Hesitancy on Religious Figures," By Walter Pincus, Washington Post Staff Writer, Monday, October 29, 2001; Page A04

As early as 1982 Iraq was linked to both the PLO and ALF. It ousted Abu Nidal temporarily that year although it returned. Abu Nidal agents invaded US territory in the late 1980s and attempted to assassinate US officials. some of its agents were arrested in that case in Virginia while on a mission. You don't have to take war to these people- they will bring it to you if you allow it.

In June of 1982 Abu Nidal attempted to assassinate the Israeli ambassador in London, England. It was this which resulted in the Israelis moving into Lebanon, where Abu Nidal had conveniently set up shop after leaving Iraq. (All the better so as to cover Iraqi complicity in their subsequent acts.)The PLO of course was already using Lebanon as a sanctuary to launch attacks on Israel, and Syria was planning on taking over the country and was using terrorist groups in the effort to fight the Lebanese government and bring it down. Syria would assassinate Lebanon's president and thanks to the US, would end up in effective control of Lebanon.

Reagan did something stupid: join in a peacekeeping effort in Lebanon, largely to evacuate and save PLO butt. Mistake- terrorists will bite the hand that feeds them. And after we had our aircraft shot down by Syria a few times, and the terrorists bombed our embassy and Marine barracks there, we finally wimped out and left. Ever since that time Imad Mugniyah and others have been free to use Lebanon as a base to conduct attacks on moderates in the region, as well as conduct terror operations against both Israel and the US. They have not stopped, and will not stop attacking Americans, because we have never confronted and defeated them and Lebanon remains a sanctuary for them. Imad Mugniyah makes bin Laden look like a half hearted fool. Hezbollah, backed by Syria and Iran, was responsible for the attack on the US marine barracks, Islamic Jihad bombed our embassy. Atta of course was a member of Islamic Jihad too.

The point is, al Qaeda is not one organization isolated from the others; its membership come from many sources and its allies in the war against the US are quite diverse. Many signed his fatwa, yet few even mention them. Some more al Fuqra acts:

SEPTEMBER 1, 1982. (JAMAAT AL FUQRA-RELATED ATTACK) Violence at Islamic Cultural Center in Tempe, Ariz. July, 1983. The Hotel Rajneesh in Portland is bombed. Three pipe bombs are placed in a fourth-floor room of the hotel by Stephen P. Paster of Los Angeles, who is reportedly one of the organizers of Fuqra in America.

And there were numerous other attacks and assassinations by these guys on our shores. The group is made up of American blacks on the order of Mumia for the most part, with Pakistani leadership. Quite a combo. Anyway, in 1983 Reagan invaded a tiny island country called Grenada, which we occupied for a while.

1983 : (DELLUMS DENOUNCES INVASION OF GRENADA) U.S. forces liberated Grenada from the grasp of Marxist-Leninist dictator Maurice Bishop’s New Jewel Movement after determining that a huge airport then under construction was intended to base Soviet TU-22M bombers. Dellums denounced the action, claiming that the invasion was "nothing less than a crime against humanity, planned and executed by people who deserve to be condemned as war criminals." During the invasion, U.S. troops discovered tons of Grenadan documents confirming the communist nature of the Bishop regime. Included was correspondence with Dellums’ congressional office. In 1982, Dellums had travelled to Grenada to, he said, get "an overview of the military questions and concerns of the United States as well as an objective assessment of factual information regarding Grenada and the building of the new international airport." A copy of the congressman’s report was found among the cache of documents found in Grenada, along with minutes of a New Jewel Movement Politburo meeting on December 15, 1982.

To make things really fun, at one point we had Iraqis and Iranians trying to kill us in Kuwait- and we still didn't have troops in Saudi Arabia.

DECEMBER 12, 1983 : (IRANIAN BACKED IRAQI SHIA TERRORISTS BOMB US EMBASSY IN KUWAIT) US Embassy in Kuwait was targeted by Iranian backed Iraqi Shia terrorist who attempted to destroy the building with a truck bomb. The attack was foiled by guards and the device exploded in the Embassy fore-court killing five people.

And then we had this guy, who came to America, and after ten years got homicidal and killed Americans without us having to do anything to him. I guess he just couldn't stand free speech and wanted to stop someone from talking:

1984 : (BAZ ENTERS THE US) Rashad Baz enters the US on a student visa. He would later attack Hasidic jews on the Brooklyn Bridge in March of 1994.

Now, the Brits weren't occupying Libya or anything, yet Libya had imported some thugs under diplomatic immunity and they plinked a Brit policewoman:

APRIl 17, 1984 : () : (BRITISH POLICEWOMAN MURDERED BY SHOT COMING FROM LIBYAN EMBASSY, BRITS GIVE IN & ALLOW MURDERER TO GO) British security forces including Special Air Service counter-terrorist troops lay siege to Libyan People's Bureau (embassy) in London after a British policewomen is killed by small arms fire originating from inside the building. After threats were made to UK citizens living in Libya, the British government decided to respect the diplomatic immunity of the staff of the People's Bureau and allowed them to leave for Tripoli. No one was arrested for the murder.

By this time we were well out of Beirut so why was this necessary in the terrorist view? It wasn't. These people just plain hate Americans and our doing nothing or appeasing them or whatever will not "contain" them.

JUNE 1984: (GREECE, LEBANON, TWA #847 HIJACKING, MURDER OF ROBERT STETHAM, USN) TWA #847 to Athens hijacked to Beirut; U.S. Navy diver, Robert Stethem murdered.

In the mid 1980s Bin Laden cofounded MAK and in the name of "helping defeat the Russians" in Afghanistan he accumulated much aid money and influence. His cofounder was Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood leader Abdallah Azzam. Azzam was even at that stage preaching hatred against the US, even as he collected money from US and Middle Eastern muslims "for the war effort." How much actually made it to Afghanistan is of course unknown. How effective this group was in fighting the Russians is also unknown. One thing for certain, though: they were great fundraiders, and they trained many Arabs (and I mean Arabs, not Afghans) in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Nearly half of the estimated 10,000 they trained were Saudis, with the remainder being Algerians, Sudanese, Pakistanis and Syrians and a few tokens from elsewhere.

Note that these were not native Afghan freedom fighters.

By 1984 Bin Laden was working in Pakistan itself, not as a fighter, but in road and bunker building. Judging by the bunkers found in today's Afghanistan and how they compare to the original tales of advanced complexes we have all heard, it looks like Bin Laden was shorting the people who funded him, who expected real work to be done. Work that doesn't appear to have occured, as what was found was far less impressive than was advertised. Where then did the money for these uncompolete construction projects go if not to the infrastructure supporting the effort to free Afghanistan from Russia? Why, it mostly went to terrorist activity other parts of the middle east, to fund his and Azzam's anti-western agenda, which cared little for the plight of Afghans, who were not Arabs and of much less concern. The funding went to creating a terrorist aid organization to support a diverse collection of terrorists and to build an illegal documents supply scheme of massive proportions so that terrorists could get in and out of countries, including the US, pretty much at will.

1985 : (ABDULLAH AZZAM & OSAMA BIN LADEN JOIN EFFORTS) By 1985, according to Azzam's own statements and acounts published by Al Kifah, Azzam had teamed up with Saudi financier Osama bin Laden, who would bankroll the Al Kifa organization. Bin Laden would soon emerge in his own rights as the largest single financial backer of the Office of Services of the Mujahideen and of the "Arab-Afghar jihad movement." Having heard the spell-binding call of Sheikh Azzam to join the jihad, Bin Laden left the comfort of his family's multi-billion dollar construction company in Saudi Arabia to participate in the jihad against the Russians. During the 1980's, unlike the overt role Bin Laden has assumed today as head of a self-declared jihad against the US, Bin Laden scrupulously stayed behind the scenes, far away from the glares of publicity. Azzam built up the Al kifah Center to be the most effective jihad recruiting ground in the world, with officers in the US, Britain, France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, and throughout the Middle East. Al Kifah opened dozens of centers throughout the US, mostly at mosques and Islamic community centers. Major Al Kifah Centers were set up in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Brooklyn, Jersey City, Pittsburgh, and Tucson, while 30 other American cities were the sites of subsidiary Al Kifah offices. The call to participate in the jihad against the infidel Soviet occupiers of Afghanistan resonated throughout the Muslim world, in the Middle East and the West. Indeed, the jihad in Afghanistan became the battle cry heard in mosques around the globe. By the mid 1980's, Azzam's call for jihad was heeded throughout the Arab world, with thousands of young Muslim men volunteering for the opportunity to partake in a real jihad. Resurrecting the doctrine of an earlier Islamic era long time gone, Azzam represented a new type of Muslim leader, the first modern-day transnational fundamentalist, who inspired an entire generation to rally to the cause of jihad. Azzam provided a sense of empowerment to Muslim youth. His talents were beyond that of a religious leader; he was a military leader and an indefatigable orator who could give mesmerizing religious speeches for hours on end. Al Kifah published a monthly magazine called "Al-Jihad," a full-color Arabic language magazine that detailed the battle stories from the front lines of the Mujahideen. The issues were frequently full of gory pictures of young men whose limbs had been severed as well as inspiring culogies to the shahids (Martyrs) who gave their lives for jihad. In its heyday, "Al Jihad" reached 50,000 people, at least half in the US according to interviews with "Al Jihad" leaders conducted by Steven Emerson in 1994. "Al Jihad" soon became a vehicle by itself in mobilizing support for the worldwide jihad. Articles frequently contained incendiary attacks and conspiratorial allegations against the US, Europe, Christians, and Jews, exposing their "crimes" against Islam. From Palestine to Bosnia, "Al Jihad" called for Muslims to pick up the gun and wage jihad to kill the infidels and "all enemies of Islam." As the mujahideen realized victory in their jihad against the Soviets, the duty of jihad against the Soviets, the duty of jihad was expanded around the globe – any place that the enemies of Islam were deemed active. Al Kifah soon became an umbrella organization for worldwide jihad movements. Beyond mobilizing support for the jihad in Afghanistan, internal documents show that Al Kifah members in the US became involved in shipping bombs, timers, and explosives to Hamas in Gaza; counterfeiting tens of thousands of dollars for purchase of weapons; reconfiguring passports to enable Muslim volunteers to visit the US as well as enter jihad battle fronts; and raising money and enlisting new recruits for the jihad in the Philippines, Egypt, Bosnia, Algeria, Kashmir, Palestine, and elsewhere. - Steve Emerson?

While bin Laden was in Peshawar, Pakistan, the al Fuqra movement- led by the Pakistani Gilani increased its attacks on and assassinations of Indians here, in Washington, Colorado, and Kansas.

Between 1985 and 89 Iraq tried to get anthrax from Porton Down, and succeeded in getting samples from the US.

The prime focus of the ire of the terrorists we face now isn't the Gulf War, or the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia. All of this preceded the US military presence in Saudi Arabia by YEARS. The goal was GLOBAL jihad, led by Arabs in particular, not Persians or Afghans. And even then not-so-religious Palestinians were welcome.

1985 - 1989 : (AZZAM & AL-ADNANI SEEK RECRUITS IN THE US) Abdullah Azzam and his top aide, Palestinian Sheikh Tamim Al-Adnani, visited dozens of American cities, exhorting their followers to pick up the sword against the enemies of Islam. They succeeded in recruiting thousands of fighters and believers. As he went around the country, Azzam focused his rage on the evils of the infidels, particularly on the US, whom he accused of sabotaging the victory of the anti-Soviet mujahideen. - "Abdullah Assam: The Man Before Osama Bin Laden," By Steve Emerson

The PLF groups supported by both the bin-Laden/Azzam network and by Iraq too were the folks who gave us the Achille Lauro hijacking. That was a civilian and not a military ship that wasn't occupying anyone or anything. There was no justification for attacking it.

And we had Iraq's buddies, Abu Nidal, still working:

DECEMBER 27, 1985 : (ABU NIDAL SUICIDE ATTACKS IN ITALY & AUSTRIA) Suicide grenade and gun attacks against passenger terminals at Rome and Vienna airports by the Abu Nidal terrorist group results in sixteen people being killed and more than 100 civilians injured.

You might remember El Hage- here he was in the US already, well before US troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia:

1987 : (WADIH EL HAGE MOVES TO ARIZONA & BECOMES ACTIVE IN AL KIFAH) In 1987, he moved to Tucson, Arizona, where he became an active member of the Al Kifah office at the Islamic Center. He soon became caught up in the jihad fervor, catching the attention of senior Al Kifah officials in both Tucson and in New York.

Now, remember, bin Laden is in an alliance with this guy and even here we see that the US is a big fat target to them, well before we built bases in Saudi Arabia :

1988 : (ABDULLAH AZZAM, ISRAELI COIN MYTH) In one speech – picked at random from hundreds that he gave and which are recorded on videotapes sold throughout the world by Islamic fundamentalists – given to a group of followers in 1988 in Kansas, Abdullah Azzam said, "Today, humanity is being ruled by Jews and Christians. The Americans, the British and others. And behind them, the fingers of world Jewry, with their wealth, their women and their media. The Israelis have produced a coin on which it is written 'we shall never allow Islam to be established in the world'." - "Abdullah Assam: The Man Before Osama Bin Laden," By Steve Emerson

By the end of the eighties Azzam's organization of Jihadists would be huge and thoroughly global in scale.

1988 : (FIRST CONFERENCE OF JIHAD : ABDULLAH AZZAM, IN BROOKLYN, NY, PREACHES VIOLENCE AT AL KIFAH HQ & MOSQUE) In what was called the First Conference of Jihad, held at the Al-Farook Mosque in Brooklyn on Atlantic Avenue in 1988, which also served as the headquarters for Al Kifah, Azzam instructed his audience of nearly 200 to carry out jihad no matter what they were, even in America. "…Every Moslem on earth should unsheathe his sword and fight to liberate Palestine. The Jihad is not limited to Afghanistan. Jihad means fighting. You must fight in any place you can get. Whenever Jihad is mentioned in the Holy Book, it means the obligation to fight. It does not mean to fight with the pen or to write books or articles in the press or to fight by holding lectures." Azzam acknowledged Bin Laden's largesse numerous times as the financial sponsor of Ali Kifah. "There is one person who has always stood by us – Osama bin Laden," declared Azzam in one speech he gave in Peshawar at his Al Kifah offices.

So as you see, our being in Saudi Arabia, or not being there, was not the motivation of either bin Laden or Azzam, and would not have changed a single thing. Their motivation has much more to do with being anti-Hindu, anti-Christian and anti-Jew. Al-Kifah, a joint venture of bin Laden and Azzam, declared war on the US as early as this date.

That same year:

1988 : (GERMAN CENTRIFUGE EXPERT MEETS IRAQIS) Bruno Stemmler, a former centrifuge expert at the German firm MAN Technologien GmbH, met secretly with Iraqi centrifuge design engineers in 1988. Before 1988 the German firm H&H Metalform Ltd. sold Iraq flow forming machines, which could shape the preforms into thin centrifuge rotor tubes or outer missile casings. - "Iraq and the Bomb: Were They Even Close?", By David Albright and Mark Hibbs, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, March 1991, Volume 47, No. 2, pp. 16-25

And :

OCTOBER 20, 1988: (AL ARIAN USF CASE) Al-Arian incorporates the Islamic Concern Project, an umbrella organization that includes the Islamic Palestine, or ICP, a charity dedicated to Palestinian causes and telling Americans about the Palestinian Intifada. MGAYGUNBS2D.html


DECEMBER 1988 : (WADIH EL HAGE MEETS WTC-1 CONSPIRATOR ABUHALIMA & AL KIFAH OFFICIALS IN OK CITY CONVENTION FEATURING SPEAKERS LIKE AZZAM, SIYYAM, AL-QUATTAN, AL-AARIFI, MASHHOUT) According to federal documents, El Hage met other Islamic fundamentalists, including Mahmud Abuhalima (later convicted in the World Trade Center bombing) and top officials of the Al Kifah Center at a major radical Islamic conference held at the convention center in Oklahoma City. The conference was sponsored by the Muslim Arab Youth Association, a militant Islamic group in the US and the Islamic Association for Palestine, a front group for Hamas in the US, (then headquartered in Tucson). The major speaker at the event was Sheikh Abdullah Azzam, the founder of the Al Kifah Center. According to videotapes of the conference and other records, Islamic militants from around the globe converged in Oklahoma City to raise the banner of Jihad not only in Afghanistan but in Palestine and elsewhere. Feverish exhortations to carry out terrorist attacks were made by Azzam and the other guest speakers, which included Ilamas leader Muhammad Siyyam, militant cleric Ahmed Al-Quattan, radical cleric from Lebanon Sheikh Muharram Al-Aarifi, and a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, Mustapha Mashhout. According to records of the conference, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other militant Islamic groups set up stands for recruiting and fundraising. Hamas leaders, according to intelligence sources, also set up training sessions at which various terrorist techniques were taught to a select group of designated recruits. (* My note : Why in the #$%& were these people even allowed into the country?) The Oklahoma Conference, like later ones (including a much larger one held in Oklahoma City in December 1992), allowed Islamic militants from around the globe to network and coordinate fundraising, political strategies, and terrorist planning.

1988 : (GERMANS BRUNO STEMMLER & WALTER BUSSE GO TO IRAQ & VISIT FACTORY 10 IN IRAQ) - "Iraq and the Bomb: Were They Even Close?", By David Albright and Mark Hibbs, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, March 1991, Volume 47, No. 2, pp. 16-25

AUGUST 8, 1988 : (PAKISTAN'S PRESIDENT AL HAQ & US AMBASSADOR KILLED IN BOMBING OF C-130 HERCULES AFTER TAKEOFF) Pakistan president Zia Al Haq and US ambassador are killed, along with thirty seven other people, when a bomb explodes on a C-130 Hercules aircraft just after take off from Bahawalpu, Pakistan.

MAY 1988 : (WMD, IRAQ STARTS AFLATOXIN RESEARCH) Starts research on aflatoxin at a laboratory in al Salman. Its method was to grow fungus aspergilus in 5.3 quart flasks (The Center for Strategic and International Studies, “If We Fight Iraq: Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction,” revised 28 June 2002) .- Iraq - Scotsman says Saddam has weapons to wipe out world's population, nuclear bomb within 3 years "The Scotsman dossier - SPECIAL REPORT ON IRAQ" by Fraser Nelson, Westminster Editor

MARCH 20, 1988 : (IRAN IRAQ WAR, WAR OF ATTRITION, WMD, IRAQ : HUSSEIN ATTACKS HALABJA WITH CHEMICAL WEAPONS) Four thousand Kurdish civilians killed during Iraqi nerve gas attack against Halabja in northern Iraq, after Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein ordered weapons to be used to put down Kurdish revolt against rule from Baghdad. * Iraq was again charged with a major use of chemical warfare while retaking Halabjah, a Kurdish town in northeastern Iraq, near the Iranian border.

This should sound familiar:

1988 : (USSR, BW, WMD : GORBACHEV KNOWINGLY VIOLATES ARMS TREATY AND PROCEEDS WITH BIOPREPARAT PROJECT RIGHT UNDER INSPECTOR'S NOSE) In 1988 Mikhail S. Gorbachev, General Secretary of the USSR, signed a decree ordering the development of mobile biological weapons (BW) production equipment to keep assembly lines one step ahead of inspectors.

1989 : (ALI MOHAMMED TRAINS ISLAMIC MILITANTS IN NEW JERSEY & CONNECTICUT) According to transcripts of the World Trade Center bombing trials, Ali Mohammed began giving training sessions in New Jersey in guerilla warfare in 1989 to Islamic militants that included among others, El Sayyid Nosair, Mahmud Abuhalima (later convicted in the World Trade Center bombing conspiracy) and Khalid Ibrahim. Other training sessions took place in Connecticut where Islamic militants trained on weekends. A FBI report, based on Connecticut State Police intelligence, summarized the activities of the training sessions using semi-automatic weapons.- "Abdullah Assam: The Man Before Osama Bin Laden," By Steve Emerson

1989 : (BIN LADEN, FOUNDING OF AL-QAEDA, MAK, MUJAHADIN SPLIT) Usama Bin Laden and others found an international terrorist group known as "Al Qaida" (the Base) based in Afghanistan and Peshawar, Pakistan. It wouldn't be long before al Qaeda transformed itself into an international terrorist network and began carrying out attacks on U.S. interests around the world. From its founding in 1989, Bin Laden was Al Qaeda's emir, or prince, and he gave the orders. " Those who were suspected of collaborating against Al Qaeda were identified and killed," the indictment states. Al-Qeada remained based in Afghanistan and Pakistan until 1991. After Azzam was killed by a car bomb in late 1989, the MAK, the earlier Mujahadin fighters of Afghanistan split, with the extremist faction joining Bin Laden's organization

35 posted on 02/14/2003 8:00:22 PM PST by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge.)
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To: piasa
Forgive me- It will take me some time to read and digest that as I am still working on your last response from another thread two days ago. I will, however- respond to both. Thanks.
36 posted on 02/14/2003 8:04:40 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Becki
Communists and anarchists were the first practioners of suicide bombings goiong back into the 19th century. Many a Commissar killed himself in suicidal attacks in the Russian revolution and later in WWII. Suicide sappers were common in Communist bush wars all over the world (ask Viet Nam vets especially those who served during the Tet offensive.)
37 posted on 02/14/2003 8:08:00 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Howlin; Lion's Cub; Miss Marple; Travis McGee; Grampa Dave
Check out this timeline for reference
38 posted on 02/14/2003 8:09:20 PM PST by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge.)
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To: Becki
Hi Becki,

Good point. I have been looking at the differences between these situations and all I can come up with is the delta between religions fundamentalist terrorism and ideological terrorism. While heinous in its own right, you generally never saw the Baader Meinhof Gang or Red September or any of the other "political" (socialist/communist/leninist/stalinist - call them what you will) terrorist group strap on a couple of kilos of C4 and march into a crowd of civilians and "die for the cause".

That is a key reason, I believe, why the terrorists and fanatics you speak of are such a bigger and more difficult problem. Containment would be difficult when the focus point of the movement is exported under the rubric of a religion.
39 posted on 02/14/2003 8:15:08 PM PST by Pinch
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To: Pinch
The German and Italian red terrrorists were rich western kids playing terrrorist as were the punks who made up the weathermen in the US. Communist suicide bombing was very common in the thirld world.
40 posted on 02/14/2003 8:20:08 PM PST by Burkeman1
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