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The Great Hydrogen Myth
Toogood Reports ^ | February 10, 2003 | Alan Caruba

Posted on 02/10/2003 2:01:51 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe

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To: jdege
It may be that we can afford better environmental controls in a huge coal plant than we can in millions of individual cars.

Don't get sidetracked. Today's cars are already extremely clean. What this is all about is CO2 and global warming. How to get the US to commit economic suicide.

21 posted on 02/10/2003 2:36:14 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: fissionproducts
Are you saying you would like to get rid of the safety features that add to it's expense? Can you say Chernobyl?

When I worked at So.Cal.Edision, the mainframe computer team alone was huge. I didin't work at that location, so I'm not familiar with details. But it was pretty obvious from watching some of the projects that the work involved had nothing to do with genuine "safety". It was bureaucracy for its own sake, pure and simple.

After all, with so many people involved, how can it possibly be unsafe? I can just imagine the inspection people dropping in and being impressed by the building, the computer room (back when it took a room), the highly paid professional staff. How could they say it was unsafe, when So.Cal.Edison spent so much money at the reactor site?

22 posted on 02/10/2003 2:36:51 PM PST by narby
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To: Ditto
There is still a lot of development necessary before we get to a hydrogen economy, but to my knowledge, there are no fundamental technical or economic roadblocks.

Except that the current hybrid cars are already on the market and we already have a fuel distribution system for them.

23 posted on 02/10/2003 2:38:35 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: fissionproducts
So we meet again on another energy related thread.

Can you say Chernobyl?

There is a reason that Chernobyl was a problem. The Ruskies built it as a bomb making factory. My nuke E prof in college showed us a picture of the plant, and was very vociferous about the safety problems and the reason for them. I guess he was po'd because it gave nuclear energy a black eye for no reason other than the Ruskies wanted to build more bombs.

24 posted on 02/10/2003 2:42:01 PM PST by MrB
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To: DJtex
I've heard this story before as well; I knew some guys who had a startup back in the summer of 2000, trying to scale up this technology. Do you know if it scales well?

They also mentioned some other trick they had patented which helped them improve yields....

Disappointing few people acknowledge/see this important discovery.

25 posted on 02/10/2003 2:42:55 PM PST by HassanBenSobar
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To: narby
Where can I get my car modified?

I haven't done it myself, but I knew a guy that did it in his garage, and as I understand it, very little engine modification is necessary. Used a Camaro--lost about half the horsepower and the range of the car wasn't what it was, but as I recall, the only major modifications he did was added a storage tank for the hydrogen.

Of course, you do run the problem of "cracking" the hydrogen (as the article puts it) in your garage. Hydrogen can be dangerous stuff, and I don't think your insurance agent would take too kindly to filing a report about how you blew up your garage...

26 posted on 02/10/2003 2:43:55 PM PST by Viva Le Dissention
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Breaking a hydrogen molecule into electrons and protons, and then sending it through an electric drive motor, and recombining the particles with oxygen to produce water poses an enormous challenge. "While hydrogen is universally abundant, it´s not cheap to get at", noted the Washington Times editorial. "At the moment, fuel cells are actually energy losers, since it costs more to free the hydrogen than is earned by running hydrogen through fuel cells." In brief, it costs more energy to turn hydrogen into energy than current technology would permit.

The guy is basically saying it's cheaper to just go on using gasoline. The question is, has he figured the cost of rebuilding one of our major cities every three or four years into the equation? I mean, we've seen what the people sitting on the oil do with money we give them for it....

27 posted on 02/10/2003 2:44:25 PM PST by merak
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: cinFLA
Since you lose at least 30% in the conversion to H2, I think that the price would be much higher.

Granted, I'm taking the word of someone who is a hydrogen promoter.

But... since one of the methods is to use electricity at night which right now is thrown away. It would seem to me that hydrogen produced by that method is basically "free". Likley, there wouldn't be enough surplus power this way, but as other posters have pointed out, there are many ways to skin this cat.

And right now, I so want to unplug from the Saudis. I'll even take some effort and expense on my own to do my little bit.

29 posted on 02/10/2003 2:46:08 PM PST by narby
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To: MrB
Can you say Chernobyl?

Yeah, I would like to throw in a comment on this--of course, the melt down at Chernobyl was "deliberate," in that they deliberately removed the control rods as part of a test. It turned out to be a monumentally stupid test, but it's not like it was just an accident. Yeah, it was an accident that there was a meltdown, but that accident was the direct result of the stupid decision to remove the safety devices.

There were a lot of other problems, to be sure, and maybe there would have been a meltdown in the future, but come on. Gotta use the noggin.

31 posted on 02/10/2003 2:48:57 PM PST by Viva Le Dissention
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Hydrogen can be dangerous stuff, and I don't think your insurance agent would take too kindly to filing a report about how you blew up your garage...

Gasoline burns pretty well too. But then, we've become accustomed to the safety issues involved, and we're used to the risk.

I'm certian that there are ways to make hydrogen "safer". Probably safer than gasoline, which tends to spread all over and flow in wrecks. There are several techniques that might be used with hydrogen. The "explode" component of hydrogen is a problem, but again, I think that can be controlled. Cost and ease-of-use I'm not sure of.

32 posted on 02/10/2003 2:51:57 PM PST by narby
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To: DJtex
a single, small commercial pond could produce enough hydrogen gas to meet the weekly fuel needs of a dozen or so automobiles

Well, where I live there are a lot of cars and not much room or tolerance for scummy ponds. Solar radiation is an inherently very diffuse and unsteady source of energy. Sounds nice in theory, but it's not a large-scale solution.

33 posted on 02/10/2003 2:54:47 PM PST by Monti Cello
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To: fissionproducts
I am not convinced that large numbers of personnel=safety. Personally I would need some tangible evidence.

That's my point. They spent money in the name of safety that was probably mostly wasted. This inflates the "cost" of fission unnecessarily. So back to my original point. I think if you built standardized fission plants with a "proper" amount of safety, they could be run for far less than conventional fuel.

And here's the really dirty little secret. Until recently, utility companies, being regulated monopolies, got to make a profit of a particular amount over their expenses. So, how do you make more money? Just spend more in expenses. I have no doubt that a great pile of the cost of fission reactors was due to this artificial reason.

We need "real" deregulation of electricity to fix all these problems. Something that California doesn't yet have.

34 posted on 02/10/2003 2:59:07 PM PST by narby
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To: Monti Cello
Well, where I live there are a lot of cars and not much room or tolerance for scummy ponds.

We've got plenty of room, and believe it or not, plenty of water out here in Arizona. Hydrogen can be piped anywhere in the country.

35 posted on 02/10/2003 3:00:35 PM PST by narby
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To: Tailgunner Joe
"The simple fact is that it still costs far more money to extract hydrogen, breaking its molecule away from others in order to use it to create energy. This is a bad idea."

"The concept is difficult for me," perhaps, but "bad"? More likely, we just haven't conceived of the way to make it work economically yet, but it will happen. It took a lot of figuring on how to make oil work in all the ways it does. Mostly, there are vested interests in the oil business who would consider promoting or developing any other resource to take oil's place to be "bad."
37 posted on 02/10/2003 3:04:39 PM PST by thetruckster
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To: Tailgunner Joe
As this article very well points out, hydrogen is no panacea for solving either the environmetal or conservation issues. I always laugh when the California wackos go zipping around in their electric cars that are dependent on the same sources of electricity they don't want us to have.
38 posted on 02/10/2003 3:05:06 PM PST by The Great RJ
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To: dark_lord
Coal gasification is the only reasonable way to generate hydrogen. There is coal in Utah/Wyoming/Wyoming and people in Las Vegas, San Francisco and Los Angeles.

Will you send coal via rail to these three cities to generate electric and hydrogen? Or do you generate in situ, in Utah/Wyoming/Wyoming? And ship the hydrogen and electricity to these two cities?
40 posted on 02/10/2003 3:08:54 PM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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